Subud Life
General Chat - relationships outside of marriage
lorenzo - May 14, 2003 - 03:46 PM
Post subject: relationships outside of marriage
hi, I wondered what people think about this issue? I personally have a vested interest in this thread, as I am in a relationship outside of marriage, as is the custom in the UK. I, of course (to avoid blatent hypocricy), don't believe that it's wrong to have relationships outside of marriage, and that the only thing a relationship should be based on is a real love for the person.
In fact, in a way, I feel this topic is a bit defunct (in the UK at least) because, unless your family or some other agent arrange for you to be married to someone, you're hardly going to be able to get married without a relationship beforehand. Maybe the question I'm really asking is regarding sex before marriage, which is a topic I'm sure has been covered before (I've not trawled through all the topics in the forum yet!). I personally believe that if you really feel love for somebody, and are in a long-term relationship that it is an ok thing to do. I certainly disagree with sleeping around, and it feels like that would be a pretty damaging thing to do for anybody.
P.S. perhaps if people want to have arranged relationships in Subud I have come up with a great name for the wing of Subud to do this - Subud Appropriate Relationship Society, or SARS for short 
Anonymous - May 16, 2003 - 10:50 AM
Post subject: relationships outside of marriage
This is one of those 'morality' issues, isn't it? Well, as a post-modern, secular westerner, I seem to share at least 2 things in common with the originator of this thread... for better or worse.
Firstly, there is the tendency to regard sex before marriage (and possibly without ever getting 'legally' married) as quite okay, both morally and spiritually.
Secondly, there's the tendency to regard what's morally acceptible - and even what's spiritually acceptible - as partly depending upon the 'cultural background' of the person concerned. From this perspective, there is no black and white; only shades of grey. But furthermore, the degree of greyness varies for each individual. What is right for you could be wrong for me, and vice-versa.
This view of things is granted a sort of 'mandate' within organisations like Subud, in which judgementalism is generally not sustainable. 'Tolerance' is tolerated. This doesn't mean that 'liberal' views, such as those expressed above, are any wiser or more spiritual than 'dogmatic' views. But I think that Subud "in principle" supports a 'hakekat' approach to issues of right and wrong, rather than a 'shariat' or 'takekat' response. To me, the shariat is about rules, and the takekat is about reasons, while the hakekat is about something higher. In practice, however, we can NEVER PRESUME that we are actually living on the level of that something. With patience, trust and sincerity, we can only hope.
The upshot is that we often arrive at a sort of 'laissez faire' attitude to matters of conscience. And what's left then is simply the latihan to help us guide ourselves.
moonlight - May 28, 2003 - 10:01 PM
Post subject: SEx before marriage
It´s really clear in religion. If we didn´t follow the Prophets advices, then why did God sent them to us. Then why are you in Subud if you just believe in your "feelings". We are in a proccess of purification, then why our "sacrate" feelings should always be right? MM... strange. If you keep saying I´ll follow my own feelings, my own "inner feeling", then you could end doing all sort of things. Should we justify our actions by saying "we felt doing them". That´s nonsense. Really nonsense. Bapak never told us that.
MahmudHenry - Jun 21, 2003 - 09:32 AM
Post subject:
My poor dear friend Lorenzo must have seen this coming, starting a thread like this.
The truth is that the social acceptability of sexual relationships outside marriage is inherently linked with that of promiscuity.
To state the blindingly obvious, the purpose of not getting married is to make it easier to end the relationship. Sex outside marriage is about, well, sex. 
Thats why its no good saying sex outside marriage is based upon love for the real person. Rather, Lorenzo brings up the subject of using sex to appropriate a marriage partner. This is using sex as an (unreliable) means to an end, a tool to put it bluntly.
And it is an illusion to believe that everyone elce in society is engulfed in an orgy of promiscuity. Thats only what the film industry wants us to think. According to the Guardian newspaper, hardly a bastion of conservative values, (in the UK) 29% of people are virgins at marriage.
lorenzo - Jun 21, 2003 - 11:44 PM
Post subject:
it may be inherently linked with promiscuity but it doesn't necessarily mean that relationships outside of marriage are always to do with promiscuity.
I find it a bit odd that you think the purpose of not getting married in a relationship is to make it easier to end the relationship, is it really? What happens if you really love someone, do you marry them straight away then? Even if it potentially may go wrong? How can you even do that in England?! Write off for a list of people who want to marry strangers?! That's the thing, it's a pointless thing to consider given that you have to have a relationship to decide you want to marry someone (or at least on the whole in the UK, no disrespect to those who believe in arranged marriages), the question is really about sex, and whether you should wait until marriage to have sex.
"Thats why its no good saying sex outside marriage is based upon love for the real person. Rather, Lorenzo brings up the subject of using sex to appropriate a marriage partner. This is using sex as an (unreliable) means to an end, a tool to put it bluntly. "
Ummm, where did I suggest that sex was a tool to gain a marriage partner? I was merely suggesting that having sex with somebody that you really love is acceptable regardless of whether you have a bit of paper saying you're married! What do you suggest? Waiting years to get married constantly repressing sexual feelings for each other? Or getting married incredibly early on, even if things might go wrong later leading to a damaging divorce or unhealthy relationship?
I see your point about ensuring sex takes place in a secure long-term relationship rather than one where it is easy to end it, but problems can occur in a marriage too you know, and then it can be far more damaging if you have to try to end that.
Basically, if you love somebody, and they love you, and it is a feeling that isn't motivated by anything other than a pure feeling of love, then it is a natural way of expressing your love for each other. It's pretty rare to experience this kind of situation you know, and I think you're getting confused with general relationship rather than actually finding 'the one', I definitely don't support sex in those kinds of relationships which aren't based on a pure feeling of love, but hey that's a really preachy thing to say and just my opinion. Being in Subud we have testing to see whether it's ok from the point of view of the kedjiwaan, so if one was truly worried about the affect on one's jiwa one can test it.
Your last comment seems to subtly suggest that I'm advocating promiscuity (mentioning that holding the view that promiscuity is rife is an illusion mildly suggesting that my motivation for discussing this kind of thing is to justify 'sleeping around') Henry which is rather alarming sweety, I certainly don't (as if you'll read my post you'll see), nor do I harbour paranoia about the film industry as you seem to , perhaps you've seen the film 'kids' too many times...
Anyway, hopefully see you round amadeus sometime so I can pummel you to death with a blunt object for this post only joking...
MahmudHenry - Jun 22, 2003 - 09:19 PM
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Comerade Lorenzo! Glad your still keeping an eye on your thread.
"What do you suggest? Waiting years to get married constantly repressing sexual feelings for each other? Or getting married incredibly early on, even if things might go wrong later leading to a damaging divorce or unhealthy relationship? "
The former, I assure you. Repression is a much underappricated method of controlling instincts. Your obviously not watching star trek enough. Otherwise, God did give us hands for a reason 
I'm certainly not accusing you of advocating promiscuity. Rather, I'm suggesting you are over pessimistic of the capacity of individuals to manage their own life-styles how they wish, instead of having their behaviour dictated to them by social norms, as you suggest.
In particular, when you write "you're hardly going to be able to get married without a relationship beforehand" you are implicitly assuming any such relationship must be sexual. Girls and boys can get to know each other just as friends. 
I'm not saying sex outside marriage is inherantly sinful and evil, merely that "that bit of paper" does make a difference. It's making a committment in front of the community - the purpose is not to rush people into relationships their not prepared for. Its to avoid exactly that. Sexual intercourse is, apparently, marriage before God, who can see us all even after we turn of the lights 
Rush - Jun 22, 2003 - 09:41 PM
Post subject: Very Interesting
You bring up quite an intersting topic and I'm sure one that's on the minds of many.
I personally think that there is an ultimate way for doing things and although Bapak always said all his words are words of advice I think to listen, we can find out truths if we really wanted to. To hear that once you have had intercourse with someone, then spiritually you are married or that, a more complex avenue that I do not really know the many realms of, that more or less, your souls are joined and so tooyour ancestry and so too the responsibility to take one to heaven seem to be two reasons to really think about and so then ultimately you could say that it would be best to first really feel whether the person is the one for you, get married and then have at it.
I don't think that it's necessary to have intercourse in order to see if the person is the right one for you and how many times have so many people been in relationships, fallen in love, had sex and then broken up maybe even after years? You're then bound to have another relationship down the road and it's probably not seen as being promiscuos to have a few long relationships that you end up having sexual relations in but how many do you end uphaving before actually, legally getting married.
The legalities of marriage really are a part of this physical world and I think that's what we forget - I don't think that legally getting married all of a sudden turns the relationship into a spiritual one.
I also think that what happens when you have sexual relations before marriage is that you get so emotionally involved that when you realise that the person you are with is not the one you want to spend the rest of your life with, it's so difficult to get away because you have this immense connection, you tend to forget this and are always drawn back to them - I think this is one of the more powerful arguments towards not doing it before getting married. It's too hard to break the ties that bind spiritually and I don't even know if it is possible.
Just some thoughts.....
lorenzo - Jun 22, 2003 - 10:11 PM
Post subject:
Thanks for your responses, this is something that's important to talk about I think, a very important issue.
I respect the opinion of those who feel that sex should be kept in marriage, and I would like to take this opportunity to say that I treat sex as being a very important aspect of life, both in the outer and inner and that I in no way see it as something just for fun or something to be taken lightly (remembering that I'm just putting forward my opinion, sorry if I ever sound preachy!)
I didn't mean to imply that a pre-marriage relationship has to be sexual, rather that one will naturally experience this kind of dillema in any relationship, and that it's not really practical on the whole to consider a relationship which immediately leads to marriage hence circumventing a consideration of sexuality outside of marriage.
I know marriage represents a strong commitment to each other in front of society, but if you are in a relationship that strongly feels like you're with the 'one', and marriage isn't a viable option in the near future should you still supress sexual feelings for each other regardless?
Remember, the problems with gaining a link with a person can occur in marriage as well as outside, and then it can be very painful and difficult to end a marriage compared to a relationship outside of marriage.
LucasAdamson - Jun 23, 2003 - 10:44 PM
Post subject: Re: Very Interesting
Rush wrote:
To hear that once you have had intercourse with someone, then spiritually you are married or that, a more complex avenue that I do not really know the many realms of, that more or less, your souls are joined and so too your ancestry and so too the responsibility to take one to heaven seem to be two reasons to really think about and so then ultimately you could say that it would be best to first really feel whether the person is the one for you, get married and then have at it.
I don't think that it's necessary to have intercourse in order to see if the person is the right one for you and how many times have so many people been in relationships, fallen in love, had sex and then broken up maybe even after years? You're then bound to have another relationship down the road and it's probably not seen as being promiscuos to have a few long relationships that you end up having sexual relations in but how many do you end uphaving before actually, legally getting married.
The legalities of marriage really are a part of this physical world and I think that's what we forget - I don't think that legally getting married all of a sudden turns the relationship into a spiritual one.
I also think that what happens when you have sexual relations before marriage is that you get so emotionally involved that when you realise that the person you are with is not the one you want to spend the rest of your life with, it's so difficult to get away because you have this immense connection, you tend to forget this and are always drawn back to them - I think this is one of the more powerful arguments towards not doing it before getting married. It's too hard to break the ties that bind spiritually and I don't even know if it is possible.
Just some thoughts.....
Bang On!
(Err...I mean, I agree )
melissa - Jun 29, 2003 - 07:54 PM
Post subject:
Chill out guys. I don't understand why we get so het up about sex in Subud with these kind of psuedo puritan ideas. Sexual culture in the twenty first century is imensely complex and informed by centuries of thought, feelings and moralistic preaching etc etc. Bapak's cultural and religious heritage is very different to mine (for example) and the only Bapak quote you will hear me say is 'learn from your own experience'. I believe that morals are personal and the essence of the Subud experience, the latihan, is between oneself and God and God is the only being we have to answer to. Whatever we do in terms of sexual activity is not going to end with us burning in hell, eternally damned. Guilt, worrying, supression and judging others, however are going to make our time here fairly miserable. Let us not judge those who prefer to wait for the one partner and only ever sleep with them or those that enjoy sex in other ways. Leave it to God. As Frankie said in the hedonistic eighties - RELAX (Don't do it? Or do, whatever...).
Manar - Jul 01, 2003 - 07:34 PM
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Hippocratic 'Pseudo Puritan' ideas or 'exciting 'Hippy lifestyle', or whatever - now where are we gearing into? Today, we are freely chatting and squabbling, asserting and justifying this great ideology and our achievements in it. "Sexual culture", really! Hhmm, sounds highly innovative but wait a minute? I did not know that sex has got a culture! To-date, there are people who are still alive and are sexually active, and these have already witnessed at least nine decades: are we to assume that these wise people have been through eternal sexual cultures? Or, is sex still the same fundamental bond that unites a couple?
Now, to the point. My cultural and religious heritage may be different from another's, but no-one knows the true nature of my sexual experience with my partner except both of us (i.e. if we are truly open to each other) and My Creator. We may think that sex is exclusively personal, I disagree. One does not have sex on one's own. Sex involves another being from this social habitat. Therefore, what one does with/to the other is accountable to that other, to society and I say to The Almighty Creator. I agree with you we are no judge on others. I believe that God is eternally kind and forgiving and has given us that eternal tool: to choose our path, to correct our mistakes and surrender to him to help and strengthen us. I will not mislead anyone by quoting Bapak out of context. To be precise, if you are interested in Bapak's Advice and Guidance about Sex, Love, Marriage, etc, check The Subud Helpers' Handbook, that precious book that certain people are hiding from the members and which they want to get rid off, but a book which I truly believe should be read by each and every Subud Sister or Brother, irrespective of their generation.
When God calls are we going to put God in His own place and define our own stances? And will He smile benevolently and say: "Bravo for being 'politically correct'!"?
Finally, I acknowledge this is purely my own view and I believe that the worst sin to Mankind is to keep people in dark ignorance (I haven't said "self-destruction!); and I pray God to forgive me whether I have said anything out of place or not.
mirandawl - Jul 09, 2003 - 12:23 PM
Post subject:
I've just logged in for the first time in months and find this discussion illuminating. I'm tempted to agree, and in turn, disagree with many of the opinions posted but will do my best to simply share my feelings (many of which are, no doubt, rather provocative).
And, as we are all on a journey which is entirely unique to each of us, I offer my thoughts as a mirror in which you might catch a reflection of what is true for you. And I accept that even the reflection would still need to be integrated into your understanding until you see it from your own unique perspective.
In the first instance, marriage, the institution, is a legal/political construct. A type of ownership that two people tag each other with in order to show that they 'belong' in our society and (more often than not) to subconsciously bully each other into a prescribed behavior. And, in truth, 'that bit of paper' rarely 'makes a difference' when someone wants to leave. However, a spiritual marriage, one in which each partner is fully accountable for her/his own feelings, actions and self-development, leaving behind the cultural norm of demanding, withholding & judging, while entering an interdependent space of acceptance, forgiveness and joining, is an entirely separate topic.
Sex, within the confines of the marriage state or outside of that legal arrangement, has sadly been so much maligned by the patriarchal social attitude (and it's religions) that we think of it as a separate aspect of ourselves, instead of an integeral aspect of who we truely are as spiritual beings. And we've been indoctrinated to fear this 'separate' part of ourselves. Imagine if eating strawberries was how our society determined who had power over others. We would be having a discussion on whether or not eating stawberries was OK, because our religions would have made this a taboo activity outside of their contolled parameters (with best intentions, in some cases). While we're at it, imagine if we honored children as valuable human beings, loved and systematically cared for by all members of society. Then the entire issue of needing to own/label/stake a claim to a specific child would alleviate the obsession to control who has sex with who, when, how, etc. But that, too, is another topic. ( And, please realise that I am talking about the 'control issue' as opposed to whether or not we want to love and care for our children.)
I have spent most of my kids life - nearly 11 years now - living and raising them on my own and have experienced feeling 'dried and shrivelled' during long periods when I had no relationship which included sex. Several times I have tested 'how is it to have sex with so&so?' (though always after developing some basis of friendship) and usually received what I can only describe as 'a better balanced, more fully awakened self' as a reply. I also know that in my ancestoral line there has been much misuse, abuse and rigidity with sex. Part of my journey with the latihan has been in uncovering, working through and resolving as many aspects of this inheritance as I am able. This has only been possible because I do have sex! My understanding and transformation in this area has come from unravelling as much of the 'hidden agenda', whether subconscious, ancestral, past life, miasmic, etc., as possible. Otherwise, the impulse of sexual desire will always be controlled by these 'hidden' variables. My work on the psychological/emotion 'hidden agenda' has enhanced and accelarated the spiritual work of the latihan. In fact, the psyco/emotional work has been the key to opening the gateway to recognition of my receiving.
Once I had experienced joining with another being, focusing on sharing unconditional love, acceptance, joy and worship of the divine source, sex became a natural part of my spirituality and sex for it's own sake (the gotta-get-some type of sex) became consistantly disappointing by comparison, even with the same partner.
While this is, perhaps, old news, the experience of it is quite an astonishing thing. Therefore, where I'm at now with the issue of sex, is that I follow the clearest, cleanest aspect of my feeling/inner guidance and
I p a y a t t e n t i o n !... In addition, I constanly ask to be guided. Again, this sounds obvious, but I have found it very challenging to believe: (1) I deserve to receive guidance!, (2) I am capable of 'hearing' or genuinely 'receiveing' the guidance that is endlessly being offered, (3) that sex is important enough to waste my spritual favor on - exaserbated by a belief that spiritual guidance is limited, (4), well, I could go on and on with this, but you get the picture. Ultimately, as someone else wrote, the only true teacher is experience. And when we choose to experience life, we need to be attentive and honest with oneself in order to learn from the experience. To suggest that the fear of tainting oneself or ones ancestral line should be the determining factor is analogous to suggesting that fear is ever a reliable bottom line for making life decisions. Surely we've seen the folly in that religious/political control mechanism.
A great challenge. of course, is how to deal with sexual desire when there is an absence of an appropriate partner. I suggest that 'repressing' ones feelings will create many maladies, from indigestion to cancer, and the healthier approach would be 'channeling' ones feelings in a more approapriate way. Someone mentioned 'using ones hands', which always seemed an 'empty' exercise without someone to share the 'love' with. Then I read the books by Mantak & Maneewan Chia with Douglas & Rachael Abrams, about 'spiritual sexuality' and followed their suggestion of using the same focus of love, joy & gratitude towards myself, as well as bringing in the latihan (they call it chi). What a difference!! How many of us REALLY love ourselves, for ourselves, as spiritual/sexual beings? How many people really love their partners in this way? How many of us know how to retain the sexual energy and use it in ones life? Or how many men can have an orgasm without ejaculating? I strongly recommend these books to male and female alike. They are extemely insightful and practically very helpful. (These people are speaking from a Toaists framework. I have gotten over the confusion about 'mixing' that seems to distract some of us in Subud, so, for me, the word chi very easily translates to life force/latihan energy.)
So, to sex or not to sex is less of an issue than HOW we have sex; what state or intention we have and (big one, this) how accountable we are willing to be for the consequences of our actions. For all of our actions have consequences.
The single most important factor to me, is bringing in the latihan. I am one who disagrees that we humans are so much more powerful than God that we can go against God's will. I choose to believe, instead, that the 'good/bad judgment' is a human construct and that the divine source of all creation is UNconditional in it's ever flowing love for all aspects of itself (humans included) and eternally patient in allowing us whatever we need on our incredibly complicated and challenging journey towards higher awakening.
And loving, joyful sex, infused with the latihan, really wakes me up!!
Safe journey...
Miranda Wilson
Merin - Jul 10, 2003 - 11:31 AM
Post subject:
Dear Miranda,
Your writing is delightful. I'm very grateful to you for it. That doesn't mean your path is necessarily like my path - of course not! But the description you offer helps me find my own bearings. I also love the metaphor of a journey.
This has turned out to be an interesting topic, hasn't it? Lots of thoughtful messages from sincere, thoughtful and earnest people.
Best wishes,
Merin
MahmudHenry - Jul 10, 2003 - 04:26 PM
Post subject:
I agree with Merin, this is a wonderful, illuminating thread on a very interesting topic. I am curious of Miranda's assertion that a spiritual marriage is where each partner is fully accountable for "her/his own feelings, actions and self-development, leaving behind the cultural norm of demanding, withholding & judging, while entering an interdependent space of acceptance, forgiveness and joining".
I thought it would be one where each is responsible for the other's wellbeing. That would be why commitment is important. My understanding is that two human beings are automatically spiritually bonded if not married when they have intercourse. Isn't the whole purpose of oneness that everything be shared? That might be the advantage of permanence in a relationship. What is everyone's opinion of this?
melissa - Jul 26, 2003 - 03:49 PM
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Miranda, what you have written is beautiful, authentic and full of wisdom. You have put into words what I feel instinctively and been far more honest than I could ever be publicly. Thank you so much. Now if only we could have this kind of open discussion at a gathering with kejiwaan support, especially for the youth, maybe we could each start to have the courage to follow our own journeys.
Love to you all
harfijah - Aug 19, 2003 - 03:09 PM
Post subject: sex, promiscuity and more
Dear Brothers and Sisters,
I just returned from the Brazil gathering. You all need to check out Ibu Rahayu's talks (2) from this gathering. It is the first time she is very direct about sex and relationships.
By the way, someone mentioned wanting to test about these topics and you can! Please don't be afraid to ask. At this gathering as well as Columbia we had scheduled testing sessions for young people to address such topics = a very open and encouraging atmosphere. Many young people took advantage of this time. If you have more questions or want to know more about types of testing questions they asked, please write to me.
To view Ibu's talks from Brazil go to www.subudworldnews.com and click on SWN special on Brazil. The top of that page are the talks in English ready to download.
Happy reading and enjoy. Harfijah
sheward - Aug 20, 2003 - 11:02 AM
Post subject:
Can I just say something about politcal correctness.
In my first week of Subud when I asked about homosexuals in Subud a helper sagely told me that God doesn't recognise political correctness.
Yes I know it's an irritating modern day buzz word and is the cause some ridiculous litigation.
But I thought the move toward political correctness in society was to help make it more egalitarian. And I'm also told that God created everyone as an equal.
So PC may be man-made but surely it's a good intentioned attempt to return to a level playing field where we learn not to judge others.
MahmudHenry - Aug 20, 2003 - 01:23 PM
Post subject:
I suppose you are right Sheward, but it can also be a useless pain in the real end. What your helper must have been trying to say is politically correct attitudes have no place in Subud when they seek to anaesthetise us against socially painful or uncomfortable realities or to deny their existence.
And be under no pretence that political correctness prevents you judging others. The mere process of changing what you say to be politically correct is an act of judgement - if you think telling another person the truth will offend them, you must think them inferior to you in some way.
Generally, political correctness is a poor substitute for common courtesy.
Love, of a politically incorrect brotherly kind,
Henry 
sheward - Aug 20, 2003 - 03:01 PM
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I suppose I can live with that.
love right back at ya brother ( though not in a gay way )
PS where does your family get its stripey shirts?
MahmudHenry - Aug 20, 2003 - 04:03 PM
Post subject:
Everywhere my dad can find them 
benjamingarzon - Aug 20, 2003 - 07:33 PM
Post subject: Ibus Talk in Brazil
HEllo
Well, I said this before in another forum: Ibu Rahayu was very clear whe she said it´s wrong if a Subud member puts on the internet that "subud members practice free sex."
That's a very general statement, it's not true, and it does not include the perspective of most subud members.
I hope we can always understand the importance of respect and that Subud is a serious organization.
Sincerely,
Benjamin G.
Ismail - Jan 30, 2005 - 10:07 AM
Post subject:
Sex
Isn't that for young people?
Since posting a question in Father Stephenson's "query box" at my Jesuit Stalag (which I left, thank God!) I have tried to rise above it!
Seriously, having sired three delightful young people (26, 24 & 19) all in wedlock, even whilst in Subud, I am glad I did not "screw around" when younger. Or older.
Sex is a bit like the song "Lemon Tree". It can be Heaven/Hell.
One can get wound up in knots philosophically discussing relationships.
Ditto discussing Bapak's advice without understanding.
Emanuel Williams was going to write a book on sex
Try nonjudgemental conventional morality.
Take care. Really! Don't burn yourself out with 1,000 affairs.
So many former Jet Setters my age - like Mick Jagger - look so passe now.
Look after yourselves. Love yourselves. Respect yourselves. Have decent friends. Live life. Sex is just part of life. Don't giganticize or overintellectualize it. See things in proportion. Decent people find decent people. Scrags find scrags.
I have no sympathy for middle aged dickheads who find themselves sad & lonely after a youth of screwing other beautiful people. Drunk or drugged.
brontegy - Mar 19, 2005 - 12:34 AM
Post subject:
"My understanding is that two human beings are automatically spiritually bonded if not married when they have intercourse"
That little Subud gem comes via Henry, if I read correctly.
This next once comes from the gutter press -just a bit approximately.
"My grandmother was your grandfather's mistress. Lets do it."
And look how spiritually bonded and screwed up those two became - Charles, and Camilla
I do note that people who live in glass houses shouldn't throws stones. I am just passing on a couple of seemingly related pieces of information.
I'm sure Bapak explained things correctly. Its just that none of us can do things perfectly.
O yes-I thought a woman (stranger I met recently) whose husband had played up and then regretted it should still take him back.
Any comments?
Bronte
benito - Apr 17, 2005 - 09:32 AM
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Thank you to the Guest. Good shit.
SMonbaron - Apr 17, 2005 - 10:32 AM
Post subject: Relationships outside marriage
Bapak's advice and guidance is that when one has sex outside of marriage that breaks up the marriage. It breaks up the spiritual oneness of the marriage.
So it is a great way to go to hell after this life.
So if you have the ability to test you can test:
"May I receive from Almighty God how it will be for my soul to be in hell after this life"
I hope that you will be able to receive how it will be for you because if you don't want to go to hell then you have to purify yourself completely when you are in this world.
If you don't purify yourself completely you will become trapped in the material heaven after this life and that is what is called "To be in hell"
If you are trapped in the material world after this life there is no way out.
You will be in hell FOREVER. Forever is forever it is millions of years in hell.
Simon
Merin - Apr 18, 2005 - 11:37 PM
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<... if you don't want to go to hell then you have to purify yourself completely when you are in this world. If you don't purify yourself completely you will become trapped in the material heaven after this life and that is what is called "To be in hell"
If you are trapped in the material world after this life there is no way out. You will be in hell FOREVER. Forever is forever it is millions of years in hell.>
I'm not commenting on relationships outside of marriage, but I believe this part of Simon's message is nonsense.
Merin
MahmudHenry - Apr 19, 2005 - 12:47 PM
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well, from a mathmatical point of view, yes, I suppose forever and millions of years are two very different things.
Ismail - Apr 21, 2005 - 03:47 AM
Post subject:
I guess "sex outside marriage" can mean both pre-marital and extra-marital sex.
There is obviously a difference. 
Bapak's life and advice were pretty conservative about both.
Obviously his moral universe - that of a Muslim Javanese who grew up in the early 20th Century - was very different to what exists in the 21st Century West.
In my experience sex can be a sort of weather vane showing where one is.
My generation - that of young adulthood in the 60s - was a somewhat alenated one.
Love & sex - like drugs - were held up as being the answer to "finding yourself".
As a shy, morally conservative, religious young man, I did not "find" myself through these means.
Having joined Subud at 21 I found that I was "protected" the one time I "tried to have a naughty".
Sex had to wait til after marriage in my late 20s.
Very rarely have I experienced "magic sex" a la Mantak Chia, Tantric Yoga or the latest American "Have a Super Orgasm" way. Never.
But I have had some memorable and mindblowing experiences. For instance, I can remember the night my son was conceived. I had been ill with flu and was quite weak but the experience was light and wonderful. The name given to my son by Bapak actually means "Light". And he is.
I am an extraordinarily average bloke you would not look twice at. Quite boring. Not a party animal. Not a member of the Subud Bright Young Set. And yet I have had this experience.
Harifah is quite right. If you want to you can test it. Whatever it is that bothers you. A light on the way. But you need to follow the answer. Testing is not a joke.
Heaven and Hell are actually within us. We all know when we do the right thing & feel good. Likewise the opposite.
Subud isn't an organisation like the Roman Catholic Church. Masturbation, pre-marital sex or contraception aren't "sins" to be "punished".
We have responsibility for what we do.
I would think cheating on your partner, whether you are legally married or not, is betrayal pure & simple.
Preaching is inappropriate in Subud. Bapak didn't preach. He did give talks which didn't finish there. He actually tested with members. To help bring them alive. To show them they had that "internal compass" which can guide them.
Talking which ends with the mouth is useless.
We need to access our own inner guidance. That is what Subud is about. It does not "abolish" religious morality but shows us what is right for us.
Sex can be Heaven or Hell. Sometimes, like Dante, your journey to Heaven requires that you see, but not necessarily participate in, the living Hell which some people create.
Idries Shah gave the following Sufi quote:
"Learn how to behave from those that cannot".
Life is a journey. A learning experience. We need to learn by our mistakes, right our little boats and sail on. At least there are quite a few other brothers & sisters from Subud on the water. They can help us.
Best wishes,
Ismail
benito - Apr 21, 2005 - 03:42 PM
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Heaven and hell? Well, here we go... I really like the Bapak quote where he says 'the greatest sin is to believe we are always right'. PINCH OF SALT REQUIRED. Bad paraphrase see www.subuh.com
Owch. Don't we all?
There is a way out of hell.
Unless, of course, I'm wrong...
benito - Apr 21, 2005 - 03:43 PM
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The 'bad paraphrase' was meant about me.
Ismail - Apr 22, 2005 - 03:10 AM
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Dear Benito ,
When using the terminology of Heaven & Hell, I was, as politely & uncontroversialy as possible, trying to get away from what I saw as being fairly black & white phraseology as used by Simon Monbaron.
My use of these terms was metaphorical. But I believe that the statement that Heaven & Hell are within you has been made by Bapak and also occurs is the teachings of Jesus and others.
I was not trying to be some smart arse intellectual but trying to get this forum away from absolutist positions.
Bapak & Ibu Rahayu's explanations are meant to be a light to your feet as you practice the latihan.
The latihan is actually the core of Subud .
I think, sometimes, we go round in circles in our discussions .
There is an underlying brotherhood between us which we need to realize. Subud does not consist of mutually antagonistic "camps" but fellow travellers on the same road.
May you be blessed,
Ismail
MahmudHenry - Apr 28, 2005 - 11:14 AM
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My impression of the hell and eternity thing is that it is to do with (surprise, surprise) the continuation of life after death. God wants us to reach a stage of awareness here before we can move on. If we do the opposite, and refuse to improve ourselves, things get worse.
Infinity is a much abused word. You cannot say that if someone does something bad, they are going to go to hell forever. Every individual is master of their own destiny, and God does not punish anyone, but rather people punish themselves.
But this does not mean that hell and eternity do not have meaning. If a person never chooses to follow the purpose of their life, we do not know of any limit to how far they can fall. This is especially true in the context of Subud. In Subud we are meant to be experiencing the grace of God. This Latihan is the means by which we are meant to stop falling and spiralling downwards. If we throw away this opportunity, then when will we want to return to God? That is the sense in which hell can be seen as unlimited. Some people give the impression that they want to punish themselves forever.
At least it means there is always a next time
Ismail - Apr 29, 2005 - 01:25 AM
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Dear Henry & Everyone,
Well, I guess if you haven't really had an experience you either believe someone credible or spend ages finding out.
We didn't come into being in a social or spiritual vaccuum. We all had parents - good or bad - relatives, friends etc. Some people's parents were in Subud or Catholic, Anglican, Jewish, Muslim etc.
I do think there is a difference between promiscuity ("screwing around"), being unfaithful in a relationship (whether "of the church" or not) or having a faithful monogamous relationship. (I refer to a heterosexual one).
Subud without any moral or ethical framework would appear to be a contradiction in terms.
Rumi said: "Without a guide a two day journey will take you 200 years".
Bapak was such a guide. Pity so many who supposedly follow his guidance don't.
Henry, I think you & I are in basic agreement.
Beamish blessings,
Ismail
Merin - Apr 30, 2005 - 01:22 AM
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Hi, Henry,
Just for fun, I'd like to analyse your last posting!
First, you're supposing there is some kind of life after death. Okay.
But WHY can't I say that if someone does something bad, they will go to hell forever? Surely this could be the case even if God doesn't punish anyone. And can we be certain (assuming there is God) that God doesn't?
Then there's the image of 'falling'. It seems to imply that one is automatically falling unless one chooses to follow the purpose of one's life. But why does the 'default' condition have to be so negative?
Also, you emphasise that Subud people are meant to be experiencing divine grace. But are other opportunities available to stop this process of falling? (And how come downwards motion always seems to be in spirals?)
Clearly, up is associated with 'towards God'. However, returning to God is somehow a matter of wanting to, and it involves following the purpose of one's life. Are these possibly much the same thing?
And with this sense of free choice, are the results limited to just either falling or not falling? Is there some way of choosing to move towards God? And if one doesn't improve oneself, why doesn't one simply stay put?
My questions are lighthearted and not to be taken seriously.
All the best,
Merin
Ismail - Apr 30, 2005 - 09:22 AM
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Merin,
Is it the sound of one hand clapping I hear for you?
Or is it the traditional Zen answer to a koan: "Mu!"
Sorry, mate, but you're a friend & I reely, reely couldn't resist as we say Down Under.
Like Dobby in "The Prisoner of Azkaban" I shall now iron my hands.
But I promise not to turn on the electricity.
Best wishes to you & Sharon,
Ismail
MahmudHenry - Apr 30, 2005 - 09:47 AM
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Of course Merin, I never take anything you say seriously!
I most like Socrates' argument for the immortality of the soul in Plato's 'The Republic". He takes the separateness of the body and soul for granted, and from there points out that although the soul can be harmed, through ignorance and cowardice, it cannot be destroyed whilst a person is alive. Hence, he concludes, the soul must be invulnerable, and so something which is invulnerable must be immortal.
Quote:
But WHY can't I say that if someone does something bad, they will go to hell forever? Surely this could be the case even if God doesn't punish anyone. And can we be certain (assuming there is God) that God doesn't?
Well, clearly there is nothing to stop you saying that, unless you have food in you mouth. What I mean is there is no reason to suppose that is the case. If a bible (or any other holy book) basher stands on a box and shouts that you are going to hell for sinning, you can legitimately reply that it is not for him to determine, as it is your own jiwa that will decide.
I think the imagery of spiralling is meant to represent how the context in which things go wrong is both changing and repeating. This is linked to why you cannot stay put. Life is about movement - blood flowing, heart pumping and all. Movement is about change, and change is always for the better or for the worse, with the whole eternal battle between order and entropy. I'm not sure where this paragraph stopped making sense, but it has, so ignore it.
All my love, Henry
Ismail - May 01, 2005 - 01:39 AM
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Dear Anyone Out There Interested,
And I suspect, as far as that goes in connection with this forum, I am wasting my time.
One of the reasons I think Subud does not spread is because its discourse is almost totally unintelligible to the average intelligent outsider.
The religions: traditional Christianity (Orthodox & Catholic), Islam (Sunni & Shia) et al are basically agreed on what they mean by Heaven & Hell.
There are some theologians or ulema (religious scholars) who are prepared to go beyond the literal meaning & interpret things metaphorically.
There are others - always the minority - who go beyond this metaphorical explanation & try to experience the actual inner reality of religion. Because the literalist attitude is "this can't be done" or "is forbidden" this third category are often considered heretics.
If, after 36 years in Subud & 57+ glorious years of a life whose richness I am just beginning to value, I "understand" what Subud purports to do, it seems to offer you the "inner reality" (hakekat) of truth without your necessarily needing to follow the sharia (religious norms). 
When Subud "came West" it was taken out of its syncretic Javanese background. Some members had, or embraced to some extent, various religions or attempted to graft this Javanese synthesis onto their own lives.
Because we are such a diverse multicultural brotherhood with, thank God, no body like the Vatican to "define" personal beliefs or moral conduct, you can really have or set up any moral framework you want from libertinism to a life of self-abnegation.
Consequently, we have no common language, philosophical or otherwise, in which to discuss our experiences in.
So I guess we shall all go our separate ways.
Thank God for that.
Toodly pip,
Ismail
davidweek - May 03, 2005 - 12:57 PM
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Aiiii.
Theological arguments are never won by one side convincing the other. It's a clash of two different worlds.
I was taken by Ismail's quoting "Heaven & Hell are within", and can't resist citing one of my favourite parables:
The Gates of Paradise
A soldier named Nobushige came to Hakuin, and asked: "Is there really a paradise and a hell?"
"Who are you?" inquired Hakuin.
"I am a samurai," the warrior replied.
"You, a soldier!" exclaimed Hakuin. "What kind of ruler would have you as his guard? Your face looks like that of a beggar."
Nobushige became so angry that he began to draw his sword, but Hakuin continued: "So you have a sword! Your weapon is probably much too dull to cut off my head."
As Nobushige drew his sword Hakuin remarked: "Here open the gates of hell!"
At these words the samurai, perceiving the master's discipline, sheathed his sword and bowed.
"Here open the gates of paradise," said Hakuin.
* * *
PS to Ismail.... St Google whispered to me the following:
Andre Gide: "Just like the kingdom of God, hell is within us"
John Milton: "The mind is its own place, and in itself, can make heaven of Hell, and a hell of Heaven"
Mark Twain: "Travel has no longer any charm for me. I have seen all the foreign countries I want to except heaven & hell & I have only a vague curiosity about one of those."
The great mystic Jakob Boehme: "Must not the Soul leave the Body at Death, and go either to Heaven or Hell? No, replied the venerable Theophorus. Only the outward mortal Life and the Body shall separate itself from the Soul. The Soul has Heaven and Hell within itself already, according as it is written, the Kingdom of God comes not with observation, neither shall they say, it’s here! Or it’s there! For behold the Kingdom of God is within you."
Jorge Luis Borges: "Balance between the two spheres is required for free will, which must unceasingly choose between good, which emanates from heaven, and evil, which emanates from hell. Every day, every instant of every day man is shaping his eternal damnation or his salvation. We will be what we are."
I would say, Ismail, that those of us who believe that heaven and hell are but states of mind, whether we are right or wrong, we are in good company. And with thought, I give the final word to Mr Twain, who said:
Go to Heaven for the climate, Hell for the company.
Ismail - May 04, 2005 - 01:50 AM
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Hi David,
Thanks
I think our "Western Cultural Heritage" with its Graeco-Roman and Judaeo-Christian roots does tend to see things in "black" & "white" & also tries to prove the abstract is concrete (the Platonic Forms).
Whereas the "Eastern" Hindu-Buddhist approach tends to ask "How can you describe the taste of a bannana if you've never eaten one?"
From the hundreds/thousands of letters to Bapak/Ibu Rahayu & the number of former visitors to Cilandak asking Sudarto all those bizarre questions & wanting an all-encompassing "answer" I think a lot of people (including Subud members) are looking for that "answer".
I would suggest they watch "Hitchiker's Guide to the Galaxy" for an answer.
My two favourite Zen quotes:
"The answer lies where all the questions cease."
"Zen has nothing to say."
My definition of myself? This haiku:
"Not yet having become a Buddha
This ancient pine tree
Idly dreaming."
May Almighty God bless us all.
Yours in deadly serious jest,
Ismail
Ismail - May 05, 2005 - 07:48 AM
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Hi David,
Some years before his death, Thomas Merton, the renowned Trappist monk & author, began to refer, rather bitterly, to what he called "The Catholic Kirk" and the destructive role its sometimes unthinking discipline could have on the genuine spiritual life & growth of its members.
Tom Merton was always considered totally orthodox & faithful to the Church's teachings.
I sometimes feel, in Subud, "we" - there I certainly don't include myself - whilst purporting not to be a "religion" or "a religious group" have effectively taken upon ourselves the persona of a religion.
This includes treating Bapak's various writings & recorded talks as Holy Writ. Quoting stuff he said was basically for guidance - a spiritual vade mecum & road map - as if every word (in English translation) were literally true.
The parallel with fundamentalism of any sort is disturbing.
Quite honestly, we won't know whether Heaven or Hell exist til after we die.
Sex is a really beautiful thing. Demonisation of it, a la my Catholic childhood or screwing around like buggaree are both extremes.
Although I am quite conservative, I have no problems with someone like Miranda Wilson saying what she said in this forum. I may not agree but she has been delightfully honest & talked about her way of dealing with being a single woman in a cold & desolate modern world. She seems to be a person not given to extremes.
People like yourself add a touch of common sense & humanity when things get a bit like an Opus Dei group.
"Bapakshay" without understanding the kindness, humanity and warm human compassion of the man is missing the mark.
I hope you, as a former Cilandak kid, will continue your contributions which I appreciate.
Warm regards to everyone,
Ismail
davidweek - May 11, 2005 - 02:05 PM
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Hi Ismail. You're too kind. And I mean that.
David
hkaber - May 12, 2005 - 12:50 AM
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This really isn't so complicated. Sex is the deepest contact that exists between 2 people. So when we come together, the content of our very souls, which is like a clear pool, merges with that of the other. Like it or not, what was once truely yours, is now forever mixed with the content of the other.
The way Bapak put it, if you were a soul at this level - say a 7, and you merged with as soul of a level 2, you end up somewhere in the middle. So the consequesces can be serious for a person with a pure nature who merges with one that is filled with dirt. Through this simple act, you now possess this dirt as well...there is no way to give it back...and no amount of regret will reverse your condition. As if you needed it, you now carry a new burden.
The first time I realized the truth of this was shortly after I joined Subud. Through acts of carlessness, I would casue myself years of intense suffering.
For my younger brothers and sisters, I have only this advise: have great respect and care for your soul and guard it as if it were the most valuable thing you posess in life - because it is.
Ismail - May 14, 2005 - 01:43 AM
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Dear H Kaber,
I understood what you said.
But, you do realize, speaking what I consider "Subudese", it may not be intelligible to a guest in an open forum?
Strangely enough - as a self-confessed "boring old fart" - of impeccable, well, almost, sexual morals, I have great faith in "the younger generation", both inside & outside Subud.
When a Catholic adolescent, I found Irish-Australian "Catholic Puritanism" (it was just that!) re sex plus what the late Malcolm Muggeridge called "the masturbatory imagery" of 60s soft-core porn made what should have been a wonderful stage i.e. becoming a man (same goes for women) hideously & unecessarily painful.
When talking to my kids, who, unlike me, got the "facts of life" explained to them, I realize now I did what my father, a wonderful, stiff upper lip genuine Anglo-Indian colonel archetype, who regarded Subud as "complete and utter bull" did to me. He did what he would have done in Urdu to his simple village lads, now far from their homes, fighting the Fascists in a war they may not have understood. He warned me about STDs. He didn't talk to me about love: with my mother, a "Merle Oberon" type, he never loved any other woman!
Sir, or Ma'am, without wishing to "rubbish" (Oz slang: send up) you, may I politely suggest, before you pass on your wisdom to "the younger generation", you consider the consequences? Please put it in plain English. Say what you have genuinely experienced. Please don't quote "Bapaksay" as Holy Writ. It was just advice to help us. Couched in language from his own background which most of us, after years, still find strange & exotic.
So many younger people reject Subud because of "the wisdom" (contradicted by the behaviour) of "us".
My apologies for any unintended offence. I have tried not to be. Offensive.
I ask that we all consider before we write.
People, sometimes with aking hearts, broken on the anvil of life, come here for help.
Someone once told me he thought my handling of one topic was inappropriate. I did take that on board.
Don't go away "hkaber" but please consider.
Regards,
Ismail
Ismail - May 14, 2005 - 01:49 AM
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P.S. I misspelt "aching" in the previous post. Or is is "acheing", "aaking" or "arking"?
Regards,
Ismail
TheWismaSubmarine - Jul 29, 2005 - 05:21 PM
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Any sexual intercourse, whether in a marriage or outside it, comes with a large responsibility, one that is invisible in the moment but rears its ugly head later. During the sex act more than just fluids are exchanged, and consequences are inevitable. Anyone who practices the latihan surley knows the truth of this.
And yes, different cultures view sex from different angles, but the only culture that really matters is God's culture. That surpases all others.
In the west we love to justify our sexual promiscuity, or freedom of sexual expression. We say i'ts not that bad. I love him or her. Its just sex", but our personal oipinions count for nothing in the big picture. The truth is, deep down we know the consequences of our sexual actions, whether married or not, especially if we consistantly practice the latihan. Its just up to us how we want to perform in life after we are aware of the truth. And believe me, when you are no longer ignorant, the karma is instant.
In my opinion, we, especially in the west, have fallen into a tailspin with our sexual behaviour. We are treading down the wrong path. There was something honest about our ancestors attitude toward sex and their deep respect of it that we have lost. Just like we so easily forget the contact of the latihan, so do we easily forget behavior that is in accordance with Gods will.
I speak from experience and know that sex, especially outside of marriage is not something to be toyed with. You will open up a can of worms, with heavy consequences, that most of us wont realise until its too late.
But dont take my word for it. Test about it..... And then test again.
Merin - Jul 31, 2005 - 03:21 AM
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To The Wisma Submarine, thank-you for having such concern about the spiritual well-being of others – to provide guidance about God’s ultimate, one true culture – representing the right attitude and pattern of behaviour for all people.
Till now, I thought that preaching in a Subud forum was inappropriate. Consequently, I found the words of The Wisma Submarine delightful. But I feel there is more that should be explained about sexual relationships outside of marriage.
I am likewise concerned that many people do not share the truth. And believe it or not, many people who share the truth still ignore it, even Subud members! So, what I am about to say is purely for their benefit, because I care about their souls.
To begin with, I must point out that God’s one true culture is not completely flexible. It does not allow for any old excuses or unlimited, arbitrary exceptions. Therefore, deviations from it could, quite possibly, produce dire consequences!
With this in mind, you need to be wary of any sexual excitement whatsoever that you encounter outside of marriage – even for one second, even if it happens accidentally – as it could be an extremely dangerous influence!
In this regard, we should follow the example of our ancestors, particularly those who hunted mammoths in what is now Uzbekistan, between 850 and 900 generations ago, whose attitude towards sex was practically ideal! In modern, western culture, sexual behaviour is typically against God’s Will. It is therefore doomed.
Furthermore, a proper marriage exists only if both partners are human. Under no circumstances should you consider marrying a plant or an animal – no matter how much affection you feel towards your cat, for instance! If you do marry your cat, then you should not have sex with it, since that would be outside of proper marriage.
I have directly experienced the truth of these matters. If you don’t believe me, then go ahead and test, and you will find that I am right. If not, then test again!
May God be with you – or as they say, good luck!
Merin
a.k.a. The Wisma Dirigible
TheWismaSubmarine - Jul 31, 2005 - 02:17 PM
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I thought I made it clear I was only speaking of my own experiences in my last post. And for those that are confused on this issue I think it is a good idea to test and test again.
Also could you please re-post and clarify what you said because it made absolutley no sense what-so-ever to me. Forgive me for my ignorance but please feel free to enlighten.
Merin - Aug 02, 2005 - 02:13 PM
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Dear The Wisma Submarine,
My posting was deliberately ridiculous, because it's a parody. It's in response to your previous posting, which I found 'preachy' -- despite your assurance. This is something that I find objectionable in certain situations, such as a Subud forum, especially when its authorship is unidentifiable in any way.
I think preachiness comes across in 'how' things are said, not just 'what' things are said. Your posting could have used more diplomatic phrases such as "I believe..." or "in my opinion..." (which occurred once).
It is nice to know that you're speaking on the basis of your own experiences -- but (in my experience)people can have very deep experiences in common while interpreting those experiences in amazingly different ways.
And this is nothing personal, but one of my pet hates is being told what I should test about.
As for pet loves, I have actually slept with my cat. Alas, the relationship is purely platonic.
Regards,
Merin
TheWismaSubmarine - Aug 15, 2005 - 04:02 AM
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Merin,
Sorry if it came of "preachy". I guess the weakness of typed opinions is that you really only get half the message. I do hope you can allow me some slack in the future as perhaps I am not so good at expressing myself in typed form.
Regarding the topic of this thread, I do believe we need to take a look at our attitudes to premarital relations. Especially in the west. And I respect Ibu Ruhayu for bringing it up as it is obviously a concern. And I have often read in Bapaks talks how he emphasised the point of "true culture". That wich trancends the culture influenced by the material world and that which is of far more importance in our spiritual and material lives.
I would hardly call North American media culture, with it's ability to convince us of sex without consiquence, culture at all. I like to call it anti-culture. That which arrises from our desires, not our true nature, or that which should be the master of our house. The jiwa.
As for my own experience, I have found myself proverbaly slapped on the back of the head many times because of my ignorance towards the true culture of sexual relations. And often find in my studies that cultures of old had a much better understanding of this.
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