Subud Life :: View topic - Sharing feelings from Bapak's Talks

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General Chat - Sharing feelings from Bapak's Talks

IrinaBoersma - May 31, 2003 - 08:28 AM
Post subject: Sharing feelings from Bapak's Talks

ADMIN NOTE: Original Title: Talks=RULES or ADVICE???

Hello everyone.

I was just reading the last post under "subud eyes" by Moonlight, and was inspired to begin a new topic about something we have discussed many times, Bapaks and Ibu Rahayus talks.......

Moonlight wrote:

Quote:

It`s really easy to go and do the Latihan, but how difficult it is to follow Bapak`s words, to follow the Prophets advices......to be consequent.

I would like to discuss this:

ARE THE TALKS HERE TO GIVE US GOOD ADVICE, OR DO THEY SHOW US HOW TO LIVE OUR LIFES(=RULES)??????

I live in a very atheistic and democratic country, here there is no tradition for following the words of the bible(eventhough the danes are christians). Maybe that is why I do not see the words of Bapak as a set of rules that I need to follow.

I have a deep respect for both Bapak and Ibu Rahayu, and I respect everything they say in the talks. But I do not follow everything they say blindly. I see the talks as good advice, as explanations when I do not know how things work. Generally I have the feeling that I would rather test about it for my self and feel how it is for ME instead of blindly following the words of Bapak.

Is this caused by my culture? Would fundamentalistic christians(or any other religion) see this differently? Actually I think so.
If you're used to obeying some kind of rules in your own religion, wouldn't you tend to see talks as rules aswell????
Maybe I am wrong, because I am not a fundamentalistic christian(so I wouldn't know how they see things, but this is excactly why I started this topic). I don't feel that I should follow EVERY single word in the bible(or in the talks).

How consequent should we be?

The things that are said in the talks have a great value for everyone. Though we could need some reediting, since the language it is written in is from the 1950's-1980's.(here I mean Bapaks talks)

Am I completely wrong? Maybe, but this is how I feel about the talks. Other people feel different about it, and that is ok for I would never try to make/force someone see things the same way I do, that is impossible!!!
What do you all think about it?

Love Irina

LucasAdamson - Jun 01, 2003 - 12:46 AM
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Hi Irina,

My understanfding is that Bapak not only advised against blindly following his advise, but said that it is potentially dangerous. If we are subservient to a Guru, then we run the risk of disempowering ourselves, and it will be harder for us to truly feel the inner reality of our experiences.

Bapak did also advocate and encourage participation in a religion, by which we have a set of rules to bring order and health to our lives.

Fortunately, and Bapak knew this first, our Latihans teach us to behave in the apropriate way by showing us the inner reality of our actions and behaviour.

I say "Be Good," because this is natural for people. I believe that people inately desire to be good, and also that their interpretations of what is "Good" vary somewhat:

Which is worse, not honouring thy father and thy mother, coverting another mans property, or murder? Well, I know what I think, but...ah, skip it.

Rulebook, schmoolbook, I say. Subud is higher than that. If people want rules, there's some great religions out there to choose from, and Subud isn't one of them.

Lucas

MahmudHenry - Jul 06, 2003 - 11:04 PM
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Dearest Lucas,

It's a sad fact that we must be very careful to structure how we say these things today. Subud may not be (is not) a religion. Yet Subud Britain is and must be, in accordance with UK charity law, a "religious organisation". Otherwise we could lose our charitable status and begin the sickly drift towards culthood.

This is the chief reason why I do not trust attempts to secularise Subud, or else distance it from any feeling of closeness to religion. Contrary to what some may think, religion is normal. It permeates the fabric of every society in the world. My experience of Subud is that it perfects religion, so we each can follow our own religions in the way that is right for ourselves.

Hence when we say Subud is "non-religious", it means a hundred different things to a hundred different people. It is true, Subud is not a religion. However, Subud Britain is a religious organisation under UK charity law, and rightfully so. In any case the reality is that Subud and the Latihan reveal the true nature and purpose of religion.

I bring all this up because I question Lucas' assumption that making any conscious effort to adhere to Bapak's advice is the same as following a guru. I think the term "rule" implies an exertion of power and control which is completely of context in Subud. The idea of "rules" as an exertion of power does not even truly belong in religion: in Islam, the Koran tells us "there is no compulsion in religion", and in the Torah, the word "commandments" as in "the 10 Commandments" is in fact a mistranslation, it actually better translates into English as "teachings".

The reason we pay attention to Bapak's advise in Subud is out of love and respect for Bapak, (there is no past and present tense in the world of the jiwa), and because we understand it to be healthy for our inner. But yes, the only way to confirm this is through testing in the Latihan, so perhaps we should all do this.

I've come under bitter personal attack for offending peoples feelings before, so before I finish I beg your forgiveness if anything I have written is out of place.

Merin - Jul 08, 2003 - 10:07 AM
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I worry more about the sickly drift towards becoming a religion. Isn't the charity status basically for financial benefit?

Following Bapak's advice seems like a prudent thing to do. This is because I think the latihan is fantastic, and Bapak was the latihan expert, so that makes Bapak a bit of an expert in related matters -- just logic. But still, it's only prudent to follow Bapak as long as I don't go against any feeling that comes from my soul. Otherwise I'd be following rules, and if Subud had rules, I wouldn't be in Subud.

MahmudHenry - Jul 08, 2003 - 11:05 AM
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Its not just for that. If we're not a charity, what are we? A private company? A political group? Its for respectablity. The term "non-profit organisation" looks rather unspecific and suspicious. Subud already has been branded a cult in France, however unjustly. Sometimes we don't realise just how vulnerable we are.

robin - Jul 11, 2003 - 05:35 AM
Post subject: here,here

Hi Irina et al,

Well Irina, i think i'm with you on this one. Could be a phase, perhaps i'm in the middle of a learning curve, but in the last three months i have gone through rather fundamental changes in my attitude towards many things including Subud. I too find it hard to read Bapak's talks, in fact i haven't really been able to read one for quite some time. The reason - i am sick of operating from fear and guilt and others perceptions of right and wrong. The other night i had the 'urge' to pick up the bible and have a read. I became extremely frustrated. Many in Subud are very faithful, we trust in Subud and wish to uphold its name. This is of course how others feel towards their religion. Whilst reading the bible i felt torn in two, here they are speaking of God, the one God, the God that often i have turned too, that i state to be the most important thing in my life, and they give this God the characteristics of a vengeful, human being who would, in this day and age, be considered to be rather underdeveloped. So do i trust my judgement, my intellect, or do i go against my feelings that God loves all humans, punishes none and can be felt in many ways. At the end of this struggle, in what was a large step for me, i threw the bible in the bin. It, the bible, made me feel guilty, 'sinful'. I should not feel this way. Below are a few other observations/realisations i have had recently:

- It is ignorant to believe that there is only one way of feelings gods presence. The world has a long history, many people and cultures. I wish to exist in a spirit of kinship with all humans in the world and this means truly respecting their cultural beliefs.

- I always heard stories of catholics, christians turning from their childhood religions when they realised how restrictive they were. They had become sick of the conservative, guilt ridden teachings. I thought this would be an easy thing to do, but now have a different understanding, since it has been very hard and scary to admit to myself and others that there are things in Bapak's talks that i cannot conform to. It comes down to a fear of blasphemy. That we will be punished or cut off from God if we do not adhere to these rules or advice that talks of certain forms of punishment.

- If you really want to shake up your ideas on religion Smile

have a read of DH Lawrence's Apocalypse. I think he was a rather angry man, and do not hold his words as gospel, but he does raise some interesting points in this book. It is funny the things you pick up and read at certain times in your life. He shows the symbolism that is present in the apocalypse and, through literary analysis, shows how there are exact links between the pagan mythologies and these symbols. Not abstract ambiguous links but really obvious continuations. And yet i have held, and i assume many others have also, the belief that Christianity and other accepted religions are above Paganism, above all the non-monotheistic religions. I realise now that this was a rather ignorant viewpoint.

The other day i contacted a church to see if i could use a space in their building for a dance performance, the administrator said she would have to know more about the dance, fair enough, she asked me "It's not pagan dance is it"? I felt like telling her that i had recently discovered there are many pagan stories within the bible. For example how can we overlook the rather pagan existance in the apocalypse of mythical creatures that have the head of one animal, the body of another, the legs of another and the tail of another!

There is a context to religion and spirituality. The essence of most is eternal and infinite and that is what is most important to all humans, however we have to be able to see our context and not be scared to question those things which stand out.

- A lot of what i did was based on the fear of punishment from God. I decided that i would try to think in this way - I love God no matter what he/she/it is and does, and God also loves me unconditionally. After a lifetime of asking for forgiveness, this is a hard transition to make, and i still find myself doing it but it is different. There are people who, when comforting others in instances of rape and other traumatic events, say that our soul cannot be dirtied, it is eternal, and eternally clean. I like thinking of this, a white light in the centre of each human being that is eternal and beautiful. What this communicates is that we are always safe.

- I also become a bit flabbergasted when i ask myself "If Bapak was able to receive the latihan, something that is so beautiful, so true, how can what he says not be true". The answer? I don't know Smile

I know he was a devout Muslim, an Indonesian, and from another generation so they may be clues as to why i find it difficult to accept what is said in the talks. I would never criticise Bapak however, my love for him is deep, so therefore i am not attacking Subud, or suggesting change. This change that i am going through is for myself and i am not recommending it to anyone else, but there maybe others out there who are experiencing similar things and therefore i share my experiences.

OK, well that is all for me.

Seeya,

Robin Wink

zizbo - Nov 12, 2004 - 08:00 PM
Post subject:

To address some points made in this discussion:

Subud is not a religon but it has legally declared itself in several countries to be a religious organization.

It is a fundamental error to mistake a "religious organization" with a religion. Islam, Christianity, Judiasm, Hinduism, etc are religions. Mosques, churches and temples are religious organizations.

There are religious organizations not affiliated with any religion. To provide the extreme example, humanists and atheists have recognized religious charities in the USA.

A non-profit organization (NPO) is determined primarily on how it uses any funds under its control. The type of NPO (educational, animal welfare, etc) is determined by the organization's main charitable purpose and activity.

Subud is an organization outside of any specific religion but it's main activity has been declared, by the organization when seeking NPO status, to be religious.

A religious organization like Subud can provide a place for religous activites without providing any rules or teachings about religion.

Being a religous charity is irrelevant to the question of whether an organization is a cult. Many so-called cults have the same legal status as Subud. (In France, there is a 1996 Parliamentary Report on Cults, but the courts said the report has no legal status and officials cannot use the report for making decisions).

A cult, like a religion, generally offers its members rules and teachings. To the extent that members reguard Bapak's talks as providing rules for them is the extent that they are treating Subud as a cult or a religion (which is actually just a large and socially acceptable cult).

Now, the main topic: Advice or rules in the talks?

To what do you grant authority in guiding your spiritual exercise? I give it to the receiving in the exercise itself. I do not mix the latihan with the jumble of animist, Hindu and Islamic teachings in Bapak's talks.

You may want to use these talks for advice about the exercise when having difficulty. However, too much of Bapak's talks stray from a discussion of the spiritual exercise into a discussion of other matters.

Did you know, for example, that the reason a man's child had a hare lip was because he went fishing when his wife was pregnant? This is according to Bapak and apparently received from God!

This might be understood as advice, if not a rule, about activites to be undertaken when expecting a child. However, it is far, far away from any useful advice when considering how to deal with difficulties in the spiritual exercise. That is why I can not recommend Bapak's talks when members need help with their exercise. Too much irrelevant, er, "stuff".

The place to turn when needing help with the latihan? To a helper you would hope.

Do helpers have any authority in Subud? Think of them as member's helpers rather than Bapak's helpers. Bapak is dead and does not need any help. It can be that members need help. Helpers are hopefully trusted advisors rather than mini-Bapaks (in the sense of Bapak as Guru).

Find a helper focused on helping you rather than quoting what Bapak had to say to someone else about a situation like yours. A helper can do a guided exercise (testing) with you so you can determine how to deal with any difficulties you are having with your exercise. That is the best source of advice about the latihian I know of, if you need it.

The best source of religious rules? Your own religion and your own receivings gained in spiritual exercise of Subud. If you are getting rules from Subud as an organization (for example, from a helper) or from a collection of talks by its founder, you are becoming a member of the world's fastest declining cult.

MahmudHenry - Nov 13, 2004 - 08:58 AM
Post subject:

Hi Zizbo,

Have you received all this, or is it your own culture specific, ideology intensive personal dogma? Mad

Henry

zizbo - Nov 13, 2004 - 05:52 PM
Post subject:

Henry wrote:

Have you received all this, or is it your own culture specific, ideology intensive personal dogma? Mad

Henry

Thanks for the wink. What is the other emoticon? A growl? Yikes.

At the risk of taking too seriously a comment apparently made in jest, I will offer an answer.

I came to Subud because I understood that this exercise was available at low cost of membership in terms of effort required to gain access to it, cultish expectations, religious rules and spiritual teachings. After joining Subud, my exercise was clear and strong. I have had no reason to ask for advice or explainations about the exercise as I have no difficulty with it.

I attended two of Bapak's talks in person out of curiousity. I left with the understanding that what he had to say was of no use to me. Having no need for the talks, I have largely ignored them. The spiritual exercise has always been sufficent for me. However, as a helper, I have had to come to terms with the existance of the talks and how they are used.

I haven't found the need to use the talks in my helpers role either. I find that a "guided exercise" (what others call "testing") is a good source of help when people want to receive about something. I look to receiving as the sole authority for oneself in Subud.

So perhaps I am not the best person to discuss the talks. Whether they contain rules or advice, I ignore them just the same.

What can't be ignored are people who find authority in what Bapak said and try to borrow that authority by imposing rules on others or by giving unsolicited advice. Unfortunately, some of those people end up being helpers...

MahmudHenry - Nov 14, 2004 - 07:09 PM
Post subject:

Yes, I enjoy having a growl or two every now and then Smile

. The reason I disagree with you is that the membership never asked us to be their helpers. Bapak asked us to be his helpers, and everyone who has been opened or tested in as a helper can draw a direct line from member to helper to helper all the way back to Bapak. That is why we are Bapak’s helpers.

We helpers do not have any authority to claim that we know more than the members - their souls may be higher than ours, and they may have progressed more in the Latihan. As often as not, I find that when I am testing for a member, they have been doing the Latihan for longer than me.

The reason members come to helpers for testing is because helpers opened them. We are indeed meant to be mini-Bapak’s, Bapak’s deputies. We are not necessarily in any way more qualified to test for and give advice to members than anyone else who has been opened, but for the fact that we have been chosen, directly or indirectly, by Bapak.

And because we are Bapak’s Helpers, we really ought to care about why he set up Subud the way he did, with all the institutions he created in the material organisation, and we ought to care about what he understood to be the nature of the Latihan he first received and which God allowed him to pass on to us, so we ought to read and listen to his talks. Just because he spoke in a different language and came from a different culture, does not change the truth of what he says. We are all human beings. Nothing human ought to be alien to us.

zizbo - Nov 14, 2004 - 11:26 PM
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Who selected Bapak? Does God need help?

If I am Bapak's helper, what help do I perform for him? He is dead and does not need help. However, members need help, which is what Bapak really was, a helper to members.

By the way, this theory of the succession of helpers directly or indirectly from Bapak does not hold up. I was not asked by a member to be a helper, that is true. Perhaps that is the way it should work! However, they can always not ask me for help if they chose to do so.

Neither was I asked by a helper to be one of them. I'm a volunteer, not a recruit. Other helpers found me qualified for the position. They found me qualified even when I do not read or quote or refer members to Bapak's talks. I can explain Subud to prospective members and do guided exercises with members quite well without refering either myself or them to Bapak's talks.

This theory of succession of members being opened and linked all the way to back Bapak does not hold up either. We are not opened by the helpers (or, indirectly, by Bapak). They are but witnesses to our allowing of this force to find expression in the spiritual exercise. If you think you are opening members, you should re-examine what you are doing.

I go to helpers who did not witness my first spiritual exercise in Subud. It would be a long journey across a whole continent to find that helper, and he has left Subud. I go to particular helpers in the area where, 30 years later, I now live. I do so because I trust them to do a good job of being a helper and joining me in a guided exercise. (Lets do away with the incorrectly translated word "testing" please).

I am a Western Buddhist, so don't accuse me of shying away from "alien" cultures. I do not have any use for Bapak's talks not because they are alien. I chose not to mix anything with my spiritual exercise, even the amalgum of animist, Hindu and Islamic teaching that constitute Bapak's talks.

It is advised to listen or read Bapak's talks while in a state of receiving, yes? To me that is mixing. I do not mix anything with my recieving, even when practicing my own religion! In fact, I am very cautious about doing a guided exercise for myself or others It can be an obtacle to receiving correctly if not approached carefully.

If you feel a need to because you think you were opened by Bapak and think you are Bapak's deputy, then read his talks by all means. I would not find it my place to try to persuade you not to do so. However, don't expect me to come to you as a helper.

Merin - Nov 15, 2004 - 01:11 AM
Post subject:

Henry said, "Just because [Bapak] spoke in a different language and came from a different culture, does not change the truth of what he says."

Yes, but not everything that Bapak said was 'true' -- in my opinion, and though apparently not often, he said some things that were false.

Zizbo said, "What can't be ignored are people who find authority in what Bapak said and try to borrow that authority by imposing rules on others or by giving unsolicited advice."

I agree. For organisational issues, though, some kind of 'authority' seems necessary in order for Subud to function. Not surprisingly, the sense of authority is abused now and then, since we are just human beings full of human faults and foibles.

Given that he founded Subud, I think it's reasonable to pay attention to Bapak. On the other hand, I believe Bapak didn't always know what he was talking about. At times when this really mattered, then I suspect he avoided saying too much on the topic. Occasionally though, when he might have felt it didn't make much difference, he seems to have made comments that were loosely inaccurate. Not deliberately, but 'casually'.

Perhaps context had something to do with it. In Bapak's didactic style, 'truth' comes with a dose of pragmatism. I don't see this as going against Bapak. It's just a factor that is possibly useful to recognise, and often isn't recognised. For me, Bapak's main points can be acknowledged without fussing about the factuality of the surrounding trivia.

Furthermore, I think it's obvious that Bapak's talks were largely coloured by his personal cultural background, especially when he was discussing spiritual subjects. Since the inner content doesn't depend on the packaging, that doesn't necessarily matter, but it can be very difficult to separate the outer trappings from any inner message.

So I consider Bapak's advice important, partly because an organisation like Subud needs some basis that is fixed. However, it is a frequent comment that Bapak always spoke in a state of latihan, making his words somehow from a divine source. I don't see this as the case; not in the way implied at face value.

Personally, I seem to benefit from hearing Bapak's talks (as rarely as this occurs). Was Bapak in latihan while speaking? Maybe some of the time, maybe even most of the time -- but (in my view) that would not make his actual words 'sacred'. For me, whenever they seem pitched at a personal level, they are essentially just ADVICE that I sometimes take and sometimes leave.

Cheers,
Merin

MahmudHenry - Nov 15, 2004 - 02:28 PM
Post subject:

Quote:

If I am Bapak's helper, what help do I perform for him? He is dead and does not need help.

Well, if you read his talks, you know this, as he talked about the role of the helpers, as his deputies, when he was alive.

Furthermore, as Plato wrote, the soul is immortal and cannot die. Bapak's work while he was alive was to look after Subud. And while he was alive he deputised helpers to help him with this work as he could not be in every group at the same time. And after he passed away, he is not materially in any group. But his mission does not end, as long as there are Subud members, our role as Bapak's deputies, now he has died, is still to look after Subud members!

Merin -

Quote:

Perhaps context had something to do with it. In Bapak's didactic style, 'truth' comes with a dose of pragmatism. I don't see this as going against Bapak. It's just a factor that is possibly useful to recognise, and often isn't recognised. For me, Bapak's main points can be acknowledged without fussing about the factuality of the surrounding trivia.

Exactly, we've been through this before, no more than 7 angels can dance on the head of a pin at any one point in time, enough is enough!

Zizbo -

Quote:

I am a Western Buddhist, so don't accuse me of shying away from "alien" cultures. I do not have any use for Bapak's talks not because they are alien. I chose not to mix anything with my spiritual exercise, even the amalgum of animist, Hindu and Islamic teaching that constitute Bapak's talks.

Funny thing this. Your Bapak quote about the fishing thing (if it really is accurate), is actually as I understand a very Buddhist statement, referring to the whole reincarnation, suffering the sins of your ancestors physically thing. Why do you keep complaining about it?

Quote:

It is advised to listen or read Bapak's talks while in a state of receiving, yes? To me that is mixing.

No it isn’t mixing. It is feeling and experiencing the Latihan in you daily life.

Really, all I think this comes down to, is who to ask when you have questions about Subud and the Latihan. Helpers are human beings who (hopefully) do the Latihan, Bapak was a human being who did the Latihan.
I do not believe you should turn to either for "help with the Latihan" as you say - the Latihan only comes from God. But when I have a question - would I trust you or Bapak more? No offence, but I would choose Bapak.

All my love, Henry Razz

ary2004 - Nov 15, 2004 - 06:06 PM
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It’s not strange to find someone finds Bapak’s talks as no use. There are hardly a single proof or scientific research which support it. In daily life we analyze, calculate and find as many proof as possible if we need to know whether things are true or not. Our mind are so use to it.

That’s why, to my understanding, Bapak’s talk are not meant to be fully digest by mind. Because then it becomes useless, it doesn’t make sense at all. And this is what I understand as, when you listen to or read it, it is good if you’re in the state of latihan. Because then your mind-which so use to proof, fact and reality- steps aside for a while, and you let your jiwa takes those words and hopefully then you get understanding and benefit from it (much, less, now or later, we don’t know).

Referring to the fishing activity, zizbo finds it as ‘other matters’ which is no use. I find it’s good to know that a man should take care not to have joy, fun or pleasure feeling from other’s pain or suffering, as there’s his child-a very sensitive creature-growing in his wife’s body.

Yeah, Bapak’s talks could be no use for someone but fully beneficial for the other. That’s why as a member and especially as a helper eventhough one finds Bapak’s talks are no use for him, he should not think that it would be no use also for others and simply cannot recommend reading Bapak’s talk. Who knows a member is one of those who find the most benefit (in dealing with his spiritual problems) by reading Bapak’s talks.

Merin - Nov 15, 2004 - 07:20 PM
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Dear Henry,

Hmmm, sorry, but you're mistaken. It's a common misconception, but the surface of a spherical cap is not homologically distinct from an affine hyperball near the surface of a rotating black hole with negative entropy gradient. Accordingly, for standard, nickel-plated, round-headed pins, and providing that their energy eigenstates are at ground level, seven angels with spin zero can dance inside each equilateral triangle formed on the radial geodesics, comprising one in each corner, one at each side and the last in the middle. As Plato understood, that's a total of six times seven, which makes 42 - of course.

best wishes,
Merin

zizbo - Nov 16, 2004 - 04:00 AM
Post subject:

Henry:

I don't know how to do multiple quotes so I'll just cut and paste.

"our role as Bapak's deputies, now he has died, is still to look after Subud members! "

So we both agree that our job is to help members. That's why I understand myself to be a member's helper rather than Bapak's helper. And as I have mentioned Bapak was a member's helper too. I just don't understand myself to be Bapak's deputy. The definiton of deputy is:

1. A person appointed or empowered to act for another. 2. An assistant exercising full authority in the absence of his or her superior and equal authority in emergencies.

I might accept that helpers are empowered to act for Bapak in witnessing a member's first spiritual exercise and to assist in guided exercises. It's that authority issue that I believe causes a lot of the problems with helper's misbehavior. I deal with that issue by saying that I have no more authority than any other member, just more responsibilities. I believe it best to simply state that I am a helper for members and ignore the fact that I'm doing so to assist a dead man.

"Your Bapak quote about the fishing thing (if it really is accurate), is actually as I understand a very Buddhist statement, referring to the whole reincarnation, suffering the sins of your ancestors physically thing."

First, Bapak was expressing an animist notion that the spirit of the fish caused the harelip in the child. The hooking the lip of the fish caused the harelip in the child. It is not a Buddhist statement. To a western rationalist, it is what is called superstition.

Second, the Hindu and Buddhist ideas of reincarnation and karma are hardly the same notion as suffering the sins of your ancesters. A google search finds no reference to Hinduism or Buddhism and instead finds a subject index of Bapak's talks: http://www.iscmedia.com/talksubjects.html. "Ancestors, there is nothing you can do attone the sins of ancestors except surrender." It is a teaching of Bapak's taken from the Islamic religion.

Third, I'm not complaining about what Bapak said but observing that it is based on an animist notion, or superstition. Last I checked, fishing was not a sin!

Listening to Bapaks' talks in a state of receiving is, you say "It is feeling and experiencing the Latihan in you(r) daily life." The reason Bapak gave for his talks was to help quiet the heart and mind of people. It is intended to assist in receiving, or to help deepen receiving -- in general, not necessarily in everday life. There is a difference in receiving in everyday life and using the tool of Bapak's talks to quiet the heart and mind.

I get quiet by simply allowing the heart and mind to become quiet. Simple and direct. I can and do experince the spiritual exercise in daily life. I need no help in receiving or in deeping receiving. The talks are a tool I do not need. I have no need for and a strong understanding that it is wrong for me to mix Bapak's talks with my receiving.

Now for the crux of the matter. A lenghty quote and a short reply.

"Really, all I think this comes down to, is who to ask when you have questions about Subud and the Latihan. Helpers are human beings who (hopefully) do the Latihan, Bapak was a human being who did the Latihan. I do not believe you should turn to either for "help with the Latihan" as you say - the Latihan only comes from God. But when I have a question - would I trust you or Bapak more? No offence, but I would choose Bapak."

I would choose the spiritual exercise.

(I am a Radical Latihanist rather than a Bapak Fundamentalist).

zizbo

Ryan - Nov 16, 2004 - 05:00 AM
Post subject:

zizbo wrote:

"Really, all I think this comes down to, is who to ask when you have questions about Subud and the Latihan. Helpers are human beings who (hopefully) do the Latihan, Bapak was a human being who did the Latihan. I do not believe you should turn to either for "help with the Latihan" as you say - the Latihan only comes from God. But when I have a question - would I trust you or Bapak more? No offence, but I would choose Bapak."

I would choose the spiritual exercise.

(I am a Radical Latihanist rather than a Bapak Fundamentalist).

And that's what makes you a rather singular Subud member (or you might prefer the label 'latihan-doer').

I for one can respect that, however, this suggests the question:

Why do you reject Bapak's advice on seemingly philosophical grounds, when God/the life force/whatever, definitely "chose" to give the so-called first contact to him so that he could give it to someone else so that they could give it to you?

Or do you consider only the exercise to be valid, and God et al. to be cultural by-products of Bapak's upbringing?

zizbo - Nov 16, 2004 - 05:56 AM
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Ryan wrote:

Why do you reject Bapak's advice on seemingly philosophical grounds, when God/the life force/whatever, definitely "chose" to give the so-called first contact to him so that he could give it to someone else so that they could give it to you?

Or do you consider only the exercise to be valid, and God et al. to be cultural by-products of Bapak's upbringing?

I do not need Bapak's advice as my receiving is clear and strong. This is not a rejection of Bapak's advice but an acceptance of my receiving. It is not a philosophical issue, it is entirely practical.

The first contact was not Bapak, as you suggest you know when you refer to it as "so-called". Many have experienced the spiritual exercise before Bapak. Some say that this is the basis of prophetic religions. The spiritual exercise has had many names and forms throughout history and is not an experience limited to only the prophets. This experience has been available to shamans, yogis, and mystics, among others, throughout the ages.

What is unique about Subud is that this experience is available at relatively low cost in terms of effort to obtain it and the need to accept a Guru, spiritual teachings, religious dogma and cultish expectations. What I object to are those people who try to bring those factors into Subud. I'm not alone in that objection.

The exercise is more valid than any Guru, even Bapak.

Buddha told his disciples not to enquire into the origin of the world or into the existence and nature of God. He said to them that such investigations were practically useless and likely to distract their minds from the work of gaining enlightenment. (As a Buddhist, this is another factor in my finding no use for Bapak's talks, again on practical grounds).

Samuel - Nov 16, 2004 - 11:41 AM
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When Bapak first recieved the latihan kedjiwaan of Subud, he told that it was not for him alone, but for the whole of mankind. Bapak therefore was willed by God, to give the contact to anyone who asked for it. As this is also a helpers obligation, it can be said that they are helping the burden that was bestowed upon Bapak.

with love Samuel

zizbo - Nov 17, 2004 - 12:53 AM
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Samuel wrote:

Who gives what contact? Helpers simply witness the first spiritual exercise of a new member. Helpers explain Subud to prospective members. Helpers aid members with guided exercises. These are perhaps burdens but they are no longer Bapak's. Bapak was a helper to members. Why must we be understood even now as Bapak's helpers instead of member's helpers?

By the way, I like the idea of placing the authority over helpers with the membership they are to serve.

Ryan - Nov 17, 2004 - 02:53 AM
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zizbo wrote:

These are perhaps burdens but they are no longer Bapak's. Bapak was a helper to members. Why must we be understood even now as Bapak's helpers instead of member's helpers?

By the way, I like the idea of placing the authority over helpers with the membership they are to serve.

In my mind, no matter how you look at it, the helpers are supposed to help the members. Yes, they once helped Bapak, but he was helping the members.

Bapak helps members. Helpers help Bapak. Thus, helpers help members.

Helpers being accountable to and/or assigned by the membership they serve is a brilliant idea.

Bustami - Dec 12, 2004 - 02:00 AM
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Just wanted to say...

I find Bapak's talks really peaceful and calms me, brings me a feeling of the latihan when I read them or listen to them. I don't study them as I believe we shouldn't and I don't find any need to figure-out anything.

I hope some will agree there is something very special about both Ibu and Bapak's talks...something beyond culture or some system or religion.

davidweek - Dec 12, 2004 - 02:14 AM
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Hi Bustami

One way of reading your post is that the talks should be listened to without translation, almost like a form of music.

I think that idea has merit, and might even heal the divided between the Talkists and the non-Talkists.

Smile

David

Englishman - Oct 05, 2006 - 10:37 PM
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I thought I would resurrect this thread as it seemed to abruptly end - well done all for your comments as it is always enlightening listening to 2 sides of the same truth.

I am currently doing Rammadan as best I can I hope and I feel that this year a path has opened up for me. I am feeling that the more I do Latihan the more I realise I am way behind where I want /need to be and among other things I have realised the following. It is near impossible to pursuade anyone to do something differently until they find the truth themselves. Luckily we have the Latihan as well so that helps no end. Despite knowing I should do something or not do something it is not until you can appreciate the full extent of what you are doing that you can amend your behaviour. However we need to start from somewhere and so that is why I feel Bapaks talks are relevant. Hopefully the soul can pick something up from them that ends up germinating later on as without listening to some kind of source how are we to move on? Bapak repeatedly says (and Ibu) that the talks are not meant to be learnt or thought about at all, but that they should be simply listened to and hopefully we will grow from something within the talk. To adopt the talks into rules was never the point and goes a long way to destroying what they were meant to be.

I'm afraid that I can not comment on previous posts concerning Buddhist or Islamic meaning behind the talks as I have not studied or practiced these but I understand almost everything Bapak was saying, so to me it feels that what he has to say is relevant. Without it we will still progress and I am sure that a contientious latihaner must get more out of Subud than the infrequent one who has managed to read every talk Bapak and Ibu ever gave.

Anyway look forward to any replies, especially the posters from 2004 to see if your views have changed at all! With much affection, Oliver.

greenlore - Oct 06, 2006 - 12:53 AM
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There are so many talks by Bapak, it would be helpful if they were categorized by subject matter. At least then you could have some idea whether a talk addresses issues that now concern you.

HarunKennedy - Oct 06, 2006 - 12:10 PM
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This forum thread has as much value to Subud, Subud Life, the people who post in it as a lingering fart that just won’t dissipate.

As Subud Life Ultimate Arbiter and Heavenly Moderator Laughing

I am laying some parameters. If people want to write posts it MUST be a discussion about what people have read of Bapak's talks, to share in their content in the least intellectual fashion possible. This of course is only for those that wish to share and work things through as relevant to a given talk.

Mike www.subudlibrary.net does categorise Bapak and Rahayu talks or rather I think uses key words to give some semblance of linkage to a search criteria.

Englishman - Oct 07, 2006 - 10:13 PM
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Dearest Harun,

As moderator and site watchdog it may be good to have a new thread on relevant topics as I thought this thread was promoting some healthy banter - though as I have now learnt is not so. On the point regarding relevance to this site, is that your photo of Adam Ant and Will Smith you posted? Embarassed

Best wishes,

Oliver.

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