Subud Life
General Chat - Who runs the show?
Ryan - Apr 08, 2004 - 07:44 AM
Post subject: Who runs the show?
Just curious about the diverse beliefs of Subudians.
If you plick "Other..." be specific.
yasmina - Apr 08, 2004 - 08:40 PM
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umm, i cant vote because it allow multiple selections? i see the god in bible and allah in koran as the same. they're the ocean and im rafting somewhere in maas, my sister's floating on the rio tejo, and robdodson's somewhere on the hudson.
or is connecticut not near the hudson, rob? 
robdodson - Apr 09, 2004 - 08:34 PM
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Connecticut is near New York State inside of which is New York City besides which the Hudson flows along, so yes Connecticut near the Hudson, but not as near as New York.
I believe the creator of the Universe is something that we cannot with these feeble brains and hearts and souls even begin to understand, but is never the less very real and all powerful.
Ryan - Apr 20, 2004 - 07:24 AM
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robdodson wrote:
I believe the creator of the Universe is something that we cannot with these feeble brains and hearts and souls even begin to understand, but is never the less very real and all powerful.
If we can't begin to understand it, how can we know that it exists?
Native North Americans believed that the Spaniards were gods for the same reasons. They couldn't understand bearded faces, muskets, and horses.
The fact that the Universe is overwhelmingly complex is not proof of God.
VitorMartins - Apr 23, 2004 - 01:18 AM
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We run the show!!
VitorMartins - Apr 23, 2004 - 01:42 AM
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robdodson wrote:
feeble brains and hearts and souls
FEEBLE?!?!?!?!?!?! FEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEBLE?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!
I could write down my whole How I See things. How I structure Life. Where, why, when, what and who is God.
But from all the books I read, all the discussions I have(about this topic) All I hear, see and hear.
...
It all comes down to the same. A wordless feeling.
Who runs the show? Whomever you want it to be. It's what you believe in. God is a personal experience, for you are a God. For we are Gods, for we are God. Everything is God. God. 
It's that simple. God is everything there is and all there is not. The seen and the unseen. The first and ultimate reality. The father, son and the holy spirit. The body, mind and spirit. The here, the there and the space between. The id, the ego and the super ego. The conscious, subconscious and the super conscious. The energy, matter and the antimatter. The now, here and the nowhere. Mind, heart and soul. The past, present and future. The physical, meta-physical and the non physical. The Alpha and the Omega.
As you can see, you can give words, all the words you can muster. You can say God is this, God is that, God is, God is not. God...
Where does that lead to? Do we need to have a formed definition of God to prove to other that we believe?
Now for God and Ala. I do not believe in religion. Religion teaches you that struggle is the point of it all. This is a false teaching. It is in not struggling that the process proceeds. It is in surrendering that the victory is won.
MahmudHenry - Apr 28, 2004 - 07:53 PM
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"Religion teaches you that struggle is the point of it all" - I don't know why you think that. My religion doesn't say that. I always thought that religion in the general sense said that love was the point of it all.
"God is a personal experience, for you are a God. For we are Gods, for we are God. Everything is God. God. It's that simple. God is everything there is and all there is not" - I don't agree with the logic of this. It is a very particular religious doctrine. Of course different people mean different things when they say God, but when I think of God is, I don't think anything which is created by something else can be classified as God. That’s what makes the dualism we have in Subud so appealing – it seems to put everything in its right place.
VitorMartins - Apr 29, 2004 - 01:49 PM
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Well. To me, whatever gives you rules to worship God is wrong!! There are no rules!!
And well, regarding the other I'm glad you disagree with me. It's what humans do best is disagreeing. And discussing how I see God in the internet... :p Not about to do it, don't even do it with myself.
Peace!!
VitorMartins - Apr 30, 2004 - 12:21 AM
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What I meant being glad that you disagree with me is that you're proving your onw pont of view.
But lets do somethign different. I've laid out my belief. And there is nothing you can say, any priest say even Bapak say to prove me wrong. Cause I believe in this and I embrace God with this.
So disagreeing with each other leads to nowhere. So I would like to read your way. But my answer would be, wow, that's interesting. Not going to disagree with no ones belief. Even if your doctrine was to kill people I couldn't disagree if you were sureendering to God that way. No?
Just for the record when I write these things I'm very calm, I'm not all jumpy defending my point of view. It's that I'm afraid you get that from these posts.
Chiill!!
VitorMartins - Apr 30, 2004 - 12:29 AM
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I just noticed this in your post!!
I hope I got it wrong!!
Quote:
I don't think anything which is created by something else can be classified as God.
? Everything is God! What do you think you are? Inferior to God? You're God, we're God. We're all made of the same "stuff".
What do you call your sons? Do you not see yourself in yours son? Do you not see your Love in your baby?
God does the same!! God sees his Love in us. We are God. God is us!
I think it as come to the time where we stop putting God there and ourselves here!! Stop feeling that God is superior and we are inferior!!
We are all the same.
Ryan - Apr 30, 2004 - 02:33 AM
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VitorMartins wrote:
Well. To me, whatever gives you rules to worship God is wrong!! There are no rules!!
Isn't "There are no rules!" itself a rule?
I don't think that anyone can argue that you're wrong. Not because you're right, but because you've not made any real statement.
VitorMartins wrote:
Everything is God!
If I say "Everything is milk," what does this change? So what? There's still a world that we experience, and there are still unanswered questions:
What happens when this bit of milk called Ryan dies? What is the purpose of that piece of milk? Where did all the milk come from?
The statement "Everything is God" is meaningless.
VitorMartins - Apr 30, 2004 - 09:39 AM
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And this is pointeless.
MahmudHenry - May 01, 2004 - 12:24 PM
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Quote:
What do you call your sons? Do you not see yourself in yours son? Do you not see your Love in your baby?
Well, I'm a bit young for that yet. But any way - children are not created by their parents, they are created by God. The reason all human beings are equal is because God created us that way.
There would be no point in worshiping God if he was not beyond human intelligence. God is perfect, we are not. At least, I know I'm not.
Love and peace 
VitorMartins - May 02, 2004 - 02:36 AM
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Henry.
The way I see it.
I am perfect.
Not talking on the outside, cause in this Life a thing is either bad or good.
On the outside, what we call "reality" things are always classified thru polarities. Good, bad, right wrong, tall short, cold hot, stupid intelligent etc etc etc...
I am perfect on the inside. The thing we call as our soul our spirit. In this there is no polarity regiment. Innerly our soul just is. Our soul is God.
To me God is not a thing that is in a place creating things, deciding something, judging others. To me God is all there is. I also do believe there are things beyond God...
To me thinking that God is superior, thinking that God is not me puts It in a place where I can't reach It. To have something superior to us makes us afraid. Afraid in a sense that we might be doing something It doesn't like or approve. Cause in God there are no polarities, there are no judgments, there is nothing. But we're in God now, and have all these things surrounding us. So God is everything and nothing at the same time.
We, our stuff are not a just bunch of "stuff". We're not God's chessboard. We're it, we're God.
Worshiping God? Do I do it when I go to Latihan, or when people go to church or pray? I worship God while I'm brushing my teeth, while I take the bus to work, when I dream, when I say I Love You to someone. It's impossible not to worship God. Life is an ode to God. To us. To God.
MahmudHenry - May 03, 2004 - 11:49 AM
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Vitor 
It somewhat defeats the purpose of saying everything is God if you are still separating the outer and the inner, which implies the inner is God and the outer is not. And though you say that if there is a difference between us and God, it would create difference, and make us afraid of him. Yet you go on to say there are things beyond God.
Shouldn't this mean that the real God is one of those things, beyond the finite lesser god with which you identify the human soul? I see the Latihan as connecting us with the absolute God, who is infinite in scope, and so different from us by nature. Not just a kindly soul that wraps us in a warm blanket, and tells us we are all wonderful little gods and the universe isn't all that big really, so we don't need to feel afraid that anything is superior to us.
All we need is love
VitorMartins - May 03, 2004 - 01:43 PM
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You got me all wrong. And you disagreed with everything single thing I said.
Which is fine.
Still, I won't discuss this any further.
Love is all you need!!
MahmudHenry - May 03, 2004 - 04:11 PM
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Oh, go on. Explain what you really mean.
I don't mean to disagree excessively. The reason I am actively challenging what you say is to bring out what you really mean. Its not possible for people to find common ground before they understand one another. And the only way to understand a person is to discover the foundation of their reasoning - hence my disagreement is really a desire for understanding.
Anyway, I didn't contradict everything you said. I agree that you're perfect
VitorMartins - May 03, 2004 - 07:59 PM
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Hummmmmm...
Okay, here goes.
I believe we're on this planet to remember who we are.
The Universe.
Big Bang and the Universe appeared and is expanding. God did this, It disected himself in pieces keeping a connection with each one to experience Itself. Like the Universe is expanding it will also contract someday. It expands and then contracts, the breathing in and breathing out of God.
Beyond God.
Us humans have already been able to break the atom, getting the neutrons, protons and electrons. Breaking these we've got the subatomic particles, the Quarks.
But this is not the end is it? I believe we can break things in half infinite, INFINITE times down. Me, broken up in pieces, I get body, mind and spirit. Together I'm a human being.
I believe we can break things in half infinite times down, but I also believe we can do the same upwards. Not break, but unite. The most direct thing upwards is God (it is upwards but it is us who compose it) and what is upwards to God? This is where I limit my use of words and shut up.
My truth.
Is that I'm remembering who I am, I have been doing so in all the Lives I've had in this planet. To remember who I am I have to experience myself. Experience can only be obtained thru trying all of the polarities, to know them both, to know none.
Polarity = WRIGHT and WRONG, I'm either right or wrong. But being in between them doesn't mean that I'm somewhat right or somewhat wrong. Being in the middle is when I've experienced wrightness and wrongness. That's when I've experience it, that's when I've remember who I am a bit more. And when I've remembered myself completely I'm enlightened, I've been able to unite myself with God. When this happens there will be something else I'll want to unite to.
This is the base of my belief. It's like a tree. The trunk is solid, I can feel it, I know it's there. As I remember myself the branches of this tree will grow and I'll be able to know them all and tell them all. At this point this is all I can say about how I basically structure my belief. More to come as I walk thru time.
Stay tuned
This is my belief.
Don't anybody come with "I disagrees" cause there is no chance you can disagree. This is no argument. This is me.
LucasAdamson - May 14, 2004 - 09:11 AM
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I just want to say that I've just read most of this thread, and it is fascinating.
I try not to concern myself with these types of conversation anymore because they tend to go around in circles and are more likely to lead to disharmony than form the basis for understanding, but I find this non-religious, scientific vision of "God as everything" compelling. It has always appealed to me - I can feel the truth of it. I feel that the "Beyond God" question is far far far from our comprehension as human beings, however, and that having an opinion on this is academic (as is this whole debate, in fact).
For me the central problem for human beings is that we were made as Gods, with the power to create and destroy and the free will to choose, which creates a massive confusion in us. The knowledge of good and evil brings with it both power and responsability, which means that we have to figure out our purpose here on earth, whereas for the animals, their purpose is obvious - procreation, eating, hunting, lying around, singing etc etc. It's all in Genesis really, so perhaps I should be the first to vote for "God as in the Bible" but I can't quite bring myself to do it, either as a subudian/muslim, or as an educated man. It's not just bullshit though - it is based on the depth of reasoning Vitor applies, but encoded in an archaic form of story.
Understanding God, for me at least, is forbidden. I haven't got a clue about God, and I don't care what God is. I just do my latihan and make no effort to understand anymore. It's very liberating. For me, that is the real "Beyond God."
With love
Lucas
VitorMartins - May 20, 2004 - 04:30 AM
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Amen to you Lucas!!
stuartnauen - May 27, 2004 - 10:38 PM
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Man, Vitor, just would like to say you are an inspiration to me, haven't forgotten the time we met a big, hope to see u again before too long. Have u realised yet, these debates suck you into a never-ending, analytical loop-hole! I tried getting passionate about my views on here a couple of times, and came up with a splitting headache! Guaranteed, words will be picked at, dissected, and held up to a magnifying glass in this forum. Okay, so it can be interesting, intrigueing etc. to go thru this process sometimes, but on such a topic as God, I put 'other' for the very reason that I could not even begin to define God as the human being that I am. I agree with many of your theories Vitor, but i am 'throwing around ideas' stage . When u start to think too much, certainly from experience I just get in a twist! What I see as important is people like yourself Vitor, grabbing the moment, being creative, having drive, passion, zest for life, waking up happy and using the talents that you have been given, and sharing your qualities with the world. whoever this 'God is, or whatever, I am sure God plays a huge part in a person's ability to live life in such a healthy, productive way as this. Peace, Stu
VitorMartins - May 30, 2004 - 05:43 PM
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Just chillin brother!!
I thank you for your kind words.
And I'm sorry but I really can't answer to what you said! :p I'm shy. As you know. :p
Thank you!!
VitorMartins - May 30, 2004 - 05:58 PM
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And I know what you mean at our words being dissected and analised and all that. Oh well... It's life... It's normal human behaviour.
For me to have my belief I first have to respect others and not judge them. Only then I think I can truly Live by my law. When I judge others I betray myself. Yes, I feel that's a good way to do it.
Just words. Just so that my logic mind knows how to deal with the intensity the comes from within, so th... lablablablablablablabalbalbalbalbalba
lablablabalbalbalbalbalbalablablablabalbalablab
Never ending balbalbla... :p
God we talk a lot don't we. :p
Peace my friend!!
Hope to see you soon!!
Hardey - Aug 04, 2004 - 04:24 PM
Post subject: God
i thought i was clear on my vote but then my faith was shaken like the ground beneath my feet, i dont know wether to vote Vitor or Lucas. what does this mean for the future of my existence.
P.S Ryan, do you want to be my friend.
Hardey - Aug 04, 2004 - 04:29 PM
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Lucas, is your skin naturally like that or do you use some kind of cream?
helenh - Jan 02, 2007 - 10:58 PM
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I believe that our perception of the monotheistic God is very much linked to our fundamental religion/beliefs no matter what we say. 
I grow up in a Luther Christian culture with Edda rots, become a Hippie, later in Subud and so Islam. That does not matter what I become, my underlying belief of God and the foundation of my religious belief will always be flavoured by the Christianity in the culture which I grow up in, does not matter what words I uses or likes it or not.
I am not God but I believe God power is in me and I believe I am made in Gods image eg. the world and universe is in me, in my cells, mind and soul and so it is for every living creature on earth. (and elsewhere) he he he 
So for me God is the impersonal universal Life Force that is in everything and everywhere (infinitely) and the name is Allah, Yahweh, Ishvara, Akal, Mwari, Shen, Deus and so on.
[ There would be no risk, they say, if the arguments for God's existence were as solid as the laws of logic, a position famously summed up by Pascal as: "The heart has reasons which reason knows not of." ]
Http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God#Names_of_God
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06614a.htm
greenlore - Jan 04, 2007 - 09:11 AM
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Well, I find it interesting that at least 3 people voted for the answer: "God is an impersonal life force." Doesn't that imply that life has no meaning, and therefore there would be no point in doing the latihan? I mean, you don't need the latihan to commune with an impersonal life force, you can just observe your breathing or take your pulse. 
helenh - Jan 04, 2007 - 07:32 PM
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# greenlore.
So, what do you want God to be then? An old man with long white beard sitting up in the sky talking down to you in a deep voice? 
BTW: Are you a Subud member?
I don't think it is appropriate to comment on what anyone here believes at the moment, if its right, wrong or whatever. If we are going to argue each others believe, we will do the same as been done through history creating wars and misery. Can't we be bigger than that?
Cant we just look at each others views and believes as they are and accept that we all think different? Maybe you that criticise most don't really understand the meaning of what's being said at the moment, you are not there yet or something.
From I was very young I use to get involved in dissuasions about God, life and the universe well, philosophy in general and then Subud. Now, I don't really bother any more it's not so important what I think or believe, if I am right or wrong in this matter and word cant really describe it anyway. (That is why Gurdjieff wrote "All and Everything" a very thick book.) What matter is that we all have respect for each other and don't creates bad feeling and war.
Now I joy bla bla bla at ebay, eater and designer forum.
BTW. This topic has been one of the most active here.
From Apr 2004 to Jan 2007 its been 27 replies by 10 members and 5268 views.
greenlore - Jan 05, 2007 - 03:15 AM
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Helen, I wasn't criticising anyone, just trying to understand what was meant by the statement that, "God is an impersonal force." It's practically a meaningless statement. Perhaps someone who chose that answer could define what it means to them? 
Yes, Helen, I am in Subud. I came into it about 1980, stayed a while and then left for over 20 years, pursued other spiritual paths in the interim. I came back in January of 2006.
greenlore - Jan 05, 2007 - 03:22 AM
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What is the Creator of the Universe?
1) God as in the Bible
2) Allah as in the Koran
3) An Impersonal Life Force
4) Nothing, the Universe Just Exists
5) Other...
Now, you do realize that all of the above could be true, don't you? How do you measure infinity?
helenh - Jan 05, 2007 - 07:31 PM
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Welcome back to Subud greenlore. I am so glad when someone comes back, doesn't matter how long they have been away, Latihan always work in you. 
I am not sure if you can trick someone in to try to explain their definitions of God and then argue the answer. (Sounds like a university dissertation.) 
God is what ever you want God to be and it still wont be God. The intellect usually want a more defined answer and that will usually creates arguments, bad feeling. I can't see it would be an end to the dissuasion that would satisfy the intellect unless it would accept that we will never know.
A wise man said ones; To know God is wrong and to not know God is wrong. 
Take this metaphor or parable if you like. "The table is most unlikely to know the carpenter that made it but the carpenter knows the table well."
So how can the table explain who and what this carpenter is, other than give a vague explanation of what it believes?
How do you measure infinity? You have to ask a mathematician with interest in metaphysic to answer that question. (I am sure you will get an answer)
I would say its soooo far out that it becomes deep within.
edit: change of word, guess where. LOL
greenlore - Jan 07, 2007 - 09:05 AM
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No, I guess I can't revive this thread with sarcasm.
But I was serious when I said that "all of the above" could be true. That is, in an infinite universe, many levels of "God" are possible. Like the seven levels of creation that Bapak spoke of, the highest level could be an impersonal infinite intelligence, which could manifest more material or personal forms of itself.
This is the role that the "avatar" serves in the Hindu religion, he is God incarnate in human form, here to assist humankind in it's evolution. Krishna was considered to be an avatar, as was Jesus Christ. But "avatar" is sort of a loaded word, "self-realized" or "enlightened" might be better terms. Supposedly avatars don't come along very often, only at decisive points in human history, prophets like Bapak are born more often - although I believe Bapak objected to being called a prophet.
helenh - Jan 07, 2007 - 11:23 PM
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prophets like Bapak are born more often??
No, you probably can't. Well, I don't understand English sarcasm anyway. I just find most of it rude and not very funny but then again not many understand my sarcasm or humour either. 
:lol:But, I am worse off and you, its only 3 mil of us.
greenlore - Jan 08, 2007 - 06:22 AM
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"prophets like Bapak are born more often??"
um... let's make that not often enough! 
"Avatar" and "prophet" are just labels anyway so I'd better quite while I'm behind.
Did anyone here ever meet Bapak?
helenh - Jan 09, 2007 - 01:35 AM
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Yes, I did a few times. Very nice man, friendly with good humour (no sarcasm though)
Maybe this is a bit sarcastic though, at least its funny : A Lady wrote to Bapak and asked if she could open her cat. Bapak wrote back and said; yes, if you ask that cat and the cat say yes.
PS. This happen in the early days of Subud
MahmudHenry - Jan 11, 2007 - 01:09 PM
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I have a bit of a problem with the term "impersonal life force", in that a "life force" must by definition be "personal".
Quote:
Krishna was considered to be an avatar, as was Jesus Christ. But "avatar" is sort of a loaded word, "self-realized" or "enlightened" might be better terms. Supposedly avatars don't come along very often, only at decisive points in human history, prophets like Bapak are born more often - although I believe Bapak objected to being called a prophet.
Greenlore, you're right to say it is a loaded term. Firstly, there were lots and lots of avatars in ancient times, look at all the ones in Greek Mythology - you have Hercules, Achilles, hundreds, if not thousands more. Zeus is said to have got around a lot. Even non-mythical, non-spiritual figures like Alexander the great is said to have been a son of Zeus, and therefore an Avatar.
What changed is only the cultural contexts. In Judaism and Islam the preference is for Prophets and Messengers. In Hinduism, Greeko-Roman Paganism and Christianity (which was linguistically greek/roman rather than hebrew/aramaic), the preference was for Gods made flesh.
Now the cultural context has changed again, so Bapak is not referred to as either, so we just call him the founder or pioneer of Subud.
greenlore - Jan 12, 2007 - 08:11 AM
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Thanks for the "welcome back!" to Subud, helen. Frankly though, I'm not sure that I ever left it. I think I continued to do the latihan but called it "meditation."
I don't recall making a conscious decision to stop going to the Subud house to do latihan. It was just that I moved a long way from the nearest group, stopped going regularly to group latihan, and eventually stopped altogether. That was about 25 years ago. Then for some reason at the beginning of last year, I started thinking about Subud again and got the urge to return. So here I am!
But I'm a more patient person now than I was 25 years ago so no longer expect to see remarkable changes overnight - now I allow a fortnight or so. - Mike
helenh - Jan 13, 2007 - 02:31 AM
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Interesting what you are saying Mike, I have had nearly that same experience. I didn't had a life outside Subud, did all the usually committee things Chairman and helper etc, then I moved 2500 kilometre from the nearest group.
As I have said earlier Latihan don't stop working or go away, it works in everything you do.
I am more humble now, don't take everything so serious. Well, its a lot I could say but.... 
I guess it soemthing to do with getting older too.
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