Subud Life
General Chat - Muslims in Subud
kallibilly - Feb 16, 2005 - 10:12 PM
Post subject: Muslims in Subud
Salaams, another newbie question!!! (please tolerate me at least until someone from my local group responds ...) 
I understand that subud is spiritual and extends across the spectrum of believers in God, and I've read the history to know enough about the Islamic connections.
I'm Muslim and I would love to hear from other Muslims...
What's your experience of subud as a practising Muslim, and what's the reaction of your fellow Muslims? I'm from an area where there are 1000s of Muslims, yet I learn that the local subud group is small and somewhat inactive (I'm not blaming the Muslims, just making the connection between a large religious group yet small subud group). How open are you about subud, or do you reserve this as a completely private matter?
ohhh, so many questions
Love
Billy
HarunKennedy - Feb 17, 2005 - 06:02 PM
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Hi Billy
I reckon its worth sharing some background to Subud and then what relationship it holds with Islam.
Whilst there is a strong sense of community within Subud world wide, Subud is in many ways a very loose association of people with a shared conception mainly based on the receivings of Bapak or Muhammad Subuh Sumohadiwidjojo. And yet many members do not feel at ease with Bapaks words being anything more than a guide that they consult when they feel moved to do so.
Separate and as a part of this, where Islam is in anyway present in Subud it is present by way of Bapak’s example as a Muslim and the inspiration people draw from that.
As far as any religion within Subud, it is not a given. Each individual member comes to Subud with or without a religious consciousness. Their sense of the right religion for themselves may change or be enriched and attuned by their individual latihans. This can be any kind of religion. Religious practices relevant to one's religion exists separately as well as being wholeheartedly combined with the latihan. In such a way Muslims in Subud do not practice being Muslims but practice the latihan and the content of their soul will reflect its Islamic essence.
Muslims in Subud are varied, some are Muslims because they have felt the dignity and power within Islam, some are probably Muslims because its almost a passing fad as a result of the influences present in Bapaks human legacy. Then there are cultural Muslims, people whose nationality and ethnic background are Islamic just as most Europeans have a Christian socialization and societal culture. I think the third case is probably who you are appealing to in your questions. I cannot share much here because I have no experience of this.
I myself have a Muslim name because my father became a Muslim around 40 years ago, he was motivated by a sincere self-choice and the awareness of the dignity and power of Islam, but also because of the fad that was evident during Bapaks time. I am not active in my attendance of a mosque, however, I don’t drink, nor eat pig and do Ramadan diligently. My Islam is part of a Subud culture that embraces certain Islamic practices and is aware of the spiritual essence within them. To be called a true Muslim I feel I would need to be sincere in my discipline to do my prayers five times a day, to be aware of the value of the content of the Quran and to realize the five pillars of Islam. Forgive me for missing any other attendant requirements. I do my prayers intermittently. Islam is a growing force within my life but not one based on clear conviction as yet. I am only a young man and have a variety of focuses at present.
Subud is not advertised in any direct way and as far as actively going out into the community and talking about Subud the general consensus is not to do such. However, most Subud members actively and happily respond to any person who shows an interest and, fumble out a summary of what Subud means to them and the nature of the latihan when asked in passing. It all depends on the individual any Subud member meets.
As far as Subud Bradford within a large Muslim community like Bradford is concerned, its more a case of being open to the individuals that decide to come towards Subud Bradford, (which I know will be the case for yourself when you meet them). Bradford is fairly symptomatic of the larger North Region (the same is the case for many other regions world wide) of Subud Britain. They are by no means inactive just few in numbers. The reasons for this are many and varied.
I know I haven't directly answered your question about myself and other Muslims in Subud somehow connecting with a Muslim community in everyday Britain or where have you, I believe its not something we do because our religion is a personal and individual thing and could not be representative of Subud or even the latihan that the next person I would meet will receive. Just as Subud exists as an entity of diffuse individuals realising their personal latihans and realising the place of religion within their individual lives.
I hope that is one answer to some of your thoughts.
Regards.
Harun.
kallibilly - Feb 18, 2005 - 10:30 PM
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Salaams and thanks Harun, that does answer some of my questions.
I've read quite a lot about how latihan enriches the religious practice of people from different faiths, and that's really where my curiosity arises. Many Muslims (and Christians, and Jews and Hindus and..and..) have what feels like a very closed (fearful?) perspective on their faith, where they will not even raise their eyes beyond certain boundaries (often defined for them by family, community, culture etc). I'm interested to know from Muslims here how they came to subud and how that has affected their practises and beliefs - accepting each person's experience is unique, one still gets a sense of peoples' experiences in hearing from them.
Hmmm, I thought that was quite a simple question, but there don't seem to be many takers! ...and that in itself makes me curious: is being in subud such a very private thing that few talk about what it really means for them? how then is latihan ever really shared beyond those in your immediate lives as being the magnificent gift it strikes me as? and how is that reconciled with sharing and giving to others what we ourselves receive? Ok there is no active "going out and selling subud", but even this space seems fairly quiet...
No offence intended to anyone here; I am genuinely curious... In fact, gonna sit on my hands now in case I type any more questions!
Love and blessings
Billy
Ismail - Feb 19, 2005 - 12:21 AM
Post subject:
Dear Billy,
I had felt to merely send you a personal message but seeing you have really been moved by the latihan (would that more were!) and you asked a good question and Harun gave you a good answer perhaps I should put my two cents in in public.
My personal belief is that Subud is a free gift beyond price to humanity from Almighty God (Allah subhana wa t'ala).
I also believe that my own religion, Islam, provides me with the best framework within which to live my life.
My own reversion to Islam was quite amazing. The ceremony and name fair blew my head off. Unfortunately, I eventually got it back, complete with nonsense thoughts.
I got a tremendous lot out of the Muslim community in Perth, WA where I lived from 1976 to 1989.
Subud's stock amongst these wonderful people plummetted when someone in the local group "explained" testing to them.
From then on they regarded me as a good Muslim who they needed to extract from this evil organisation. Masha Allah!
We are always open to this sort of lunacy affecting our standing in the Muslim community.
I am sure many Subud members have wonderful experiences of what their religion is about. They have often learnt, from bitter experience, to shut up about it in their local groups.
Subud came to the English speaking world from Indonesia via the Gurdjieff site at Coombe Springs. Indonesians tend to be very secretive about their spiritual lives whereas John Bennett was a professional spiritual guru whose books were a source of income to him. But Gurdjieff tends to be very hierarchical and inward looking.
I think, with a lot of Coombe Springers moving on to that Great Latihan in the Sky, we will burst that old wineskin. Masha Allah!
New or younger members like you don't carry that baggage. Masha Allah!
From eight years experience of my local Subud group (Brisbane) and a 36 year sentence (no remissions) to Subud Australia I think Subud, in this country at least, is probably best in its own closet. And, until we have something better to show the world, I sincerely hope it stays that way! I would be ashamed to introduce my friends to the group. Yup, the latihan's wonderful but some of the people ...
But maybe the younger & newer people, like yourselves & Harun ...
I for one certainly hope for change. Short of a bomb under our local latihan hall, which I wouldn't do ...
Be young, be blessed, be yourself.
The future lies with you.
Warmest regards.
As Salaamu Aleikum wa Rahmatullahi wa Barakatuh.
Jazzaz Allah (May God reward you),
Ismail
MahmudHenry - Feb 20, 2005 - 06:28 PM
Post subject:
Hi kallibilly!
I think a lot, if not most, of the Muslims in Subud, outside Indonesia, converted to Islam after being opened in Subud, as a result of testing. That was the case with my father, and as a result I was born a Muslim in Subud.
The main problem Subud muslims have in relation to non-Subud Muslims, is, in my experiance, that in the outside world pious muslims can be very dogmatic and imam oriantated, and tend to see any claim to be able to recieve the difference between right and wrong directly from God to be herasy.
I think this is a problem generally with integrating ourselves into the culture of organised religions. It is hard to tell preists or imams that we think, nay, we know we understand better than them what their own religion is about. Much better to just sit quitely at the back of the congregation and nod politely.
Ismail - Feb 20, 2005 - 11:55 PM
Post subject:
Dear Billy,
Coming from Brisbane, where the sun never stops shining, I wonder what sort of "light", real or metaphorical, would shine in Bradford.
My understanding of the Muslim community is that it is heavily South Asian and quite conservative in outlook. If I remember correctly, they burned "The Satanic Verses" there.
I have no idea what the Subud group there is like. Stodgy and solid or alive and active.
At 40 you seem to be on the cusp of something wonderful. I pray you receive bread instead of a stone to eat.
"Subud and Islam" is an old topic. Rather than have a lot of old stuff repeated, why don't you, as, I presume, a convert to Islam, tell the punters your story and then they may be able to reply appropriately? Or, if you are that anthropological specimen "an ethnic Muslim", that would be even more interesting.
You seem, with interests in Subud and "A Course in Miracles", to be at a stage where there is a possibility of something wonderful opening up.
I hope the Bradford Women Helpers can give you some satisfaction. Maybe even put you on to some good preliminary stuff to read. Practical.
As a revert to Islam, who found out that he actually had, to his delight, a long and ancient Muslim and Sufi pedigree, I have found myself in a somewhat different position to the Ridwan (formerly Jack) Grimethorpes of this world. I "fitted in" from the start. In all ways. 29 years later I rejoice in reverting.
Islam at the moment seems to be struggling to find its true soul. My feeling is that its true soul was revealed during the life of Rasulullah salallahoo allahi wasalaam and that, after it had sunk deplorably since then, there was a wonderful revival in the 11th to 14th Centuries CE, with the like of Ibn al Arabi, Shams of Tabriz, Maulana Rumi, Sheikh Suhrawardi, Khwaja Moinuddin Chishti etc.
Subud to me was a light that enabled me to return to this heritage. It is significant to me that the late Pak Subuh was a Seyyid, a descendant of the great Sheikh Abdul Qadir al Gilani and a practising and tolerant Muslim.
May I say I hope that you are blessed, guided and protected on your journey?
May you find Him.
Jazzaz Allah,
Ismail
davidweek - Feb 21, 2005 - 11:26 AM
Post subject:
Hi guys
First, it's good to see that some people in Subud do take a religion seriously.
One question that I have about Subud and Islam (not being a Muslim: but always open to education) is this:
My understanding is that in Islam, the Qur'an is considered the literal word of God, so that to do anything that is prohibited by the Qur'an is un-Islamic. Is that correct?
And if so, for an Islamic Subud member, would not the Qur'an take precedence over anything in Subud -- testing, Pak Subuh's advice, etc.
The reason for my question is this: As I understand it, the promise of Subud is that it has not teaching, does not contradict any religion, and is open to people of any religion. But I can for myself see that there is a lot of teaching in Subud, and the advice of some Muslim friends as that much of this advice does indeed contradict the Qur'an.
Your views?
David
Ismail - Feb 21, 2005 - 01:01 PM
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Dear David,
You have certainly slipped in a "loaded" question! 
I imagine you have no Arabic.
Have you ever studied one of the English interpretations of the Quran generally respected by Muslims such as Pickthall's or Yusuf Ali's? Because, even though it is true that the Quran is essentially untranslatable, you might get a clue of what it is about. A tiny one.
Some suras ("chapters") of the Quran actually state that they are metaphors. So they cannot be taken "literally"!
Reading and attempting to understand and follow the Quran and Islam are not as simple as you infer.
You appear to be asking whether an orthodox Muslim would be forced to consider Subud outside Islam.
May I quote, against this loaded question, from Ronald Eyre's "The Long Search" a question he asked the Grand Sheikh of Al Azhar and the answer he received?
"How free, I asked, is a Muslim to interpret the Quran for himself and reach a dissenting conclusion that might shock the orthodox? Freedom of interpretation might, he thought, be possible under certain conditions. First, master Arabic; then absorb yourself in the Quran; then study the Sayings of the Prophet, the conditions of his life, the structure of his community; then sit at the feet of the great lawyers who are the successors of one or other of the mighty four who established the four accepted schools of Islamic Law; throughout, live the regular life of a Muslim. Then, ask the question again."
Subud is not mentioned in the Quran.
Whether it is acceptable or unacceptable for Muslims is something, if a Muslim Subud member was concerned about, he could approach the requisite authorities for a ruling.
I am sure, if you wish, having embraced Islam, you could approach the Fatwa Committee of Al Azhar University.
I regret I am unable to help by issuing the relevant fatwa. My apologies.
With respectful regrets,
Ismail
davidweek - Feb 21, 2005 - 02:21 PM
Post subject:
Hi Ismael
Ismail wrote:
You have certainly slipped in a "loaded" question! :shock:
I confess that to be the case.
Ismail wrote:
I imagine you have no Arabic.
Only the requesite 20-30 terms one comes across in Subud :-)
Ismail wrote:
Have you ever studied one of the English interpretations of the Quran generally respected by Muslims such as Pickthall's or Yusuf Ali's? Because, even though it is true that the Quran is essentially untranslatable, you might get a clue of what it is about. A tiny one.
I confess to be a serious student of:
- the Enlightenment
- what has come after the Enlightenment
- Western and Zen Buddhism
- liberal Christianity
My knowledge of Islam is little, but rather than try and remedy that (or rather my prefered road to the remedy) is to depend upon you for the expertise.
Ismail wrote:
Some suras ("chapters") of the Quran actually state that they are metaphors. So they cannot be taken "literally"! Reading and attempting to understand and follow the Quran and Islam are not as simple as you infer. You appear to be asking whether an orthodox Muslim would be forced to consider Subud outside Islam.
I'm glad to hear that non-literalists interpration of the Quran is allowed, though I'm not sure how many of your coreligionists would agree.
Ismail wrote:
May I quote, against this loaded question, from Ronald Eyre's "The Long Search" a question he asked the Grand Sheikh of Al Azhar and the answer he received?
"How free, I asked, is a Muslim to interpret the Quran for himself and reach a dissenting conclusion that might shock the orthodox? Freedom of interpretation might, he thought, be possible under certain conditions. First, master Arabic; then absorb yourself in the Quran; then study the Sayings of the Prophet, the conditions of his life, the structure of his community; then sit at the feet of the great lawyers who are the successors of one or other of the mighty four who established the four accepted schools of Islamic Law; throughout, live the regular life of a Muslim. Then, ask the question again."
Again: I trust that you will take that role, as a Muslim. I want to remain the questioning outsider. I'd like you to be the knowledgeable insider.
And again: I am not seeking to question Islam, but Subud. For Subud promises not to contradict any religion, which I think is a wonderful and worthy promise. However, my sense is that we have failed to deliver on said promise, and so I am investigating whether that is the case (with different faiths) and if so how so.
Ismail wrote:
Subud is not mentioned in the Quran. Whether it is acceptable or unacceptable for Muslims is something, if a Muslim Subud member was concerned about, he could approach the requisite authorities for a ruling.
I am sure, if you wish, having embraced Islam, you could approach the Fatwa Committee of Al Azhar University. I regret I am unable to help by issuing the relevant fatwa. My apologies.
I shall write Al Azhar University for a determination.
Thank you.
David
kallibilly - Feb 21, 2005 - 10:29 PM
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Salaams Dear Ones, and many thanks for your thoughts and sharing.
Ismailji, thank-you for sharing so honestly your subud experiences. There is so much value to one who arrives as I do with an openness to hear what has not worked for you as much as what has...
Henryji, your comments reflect what I wondered, that, as in many organised faiths, in Islam also the dogmatic outlook of many leaves little space for an open heart and mind to God's guidance other than through the interpretation of priest, parent and community...
Perhaps as Ismail suggests, what might elicit most true sharing is tell you more about how I find myself here...
Ismail, please contain your excitement; I am an anthropological as opposed to revert specimen I am born a Muslim, of south asian parents, came to the UK as a child and have been raised in a fairly traditional, Muslim family. The beliefs we were taught were simple : There is One God (swt) and His Prophet is Muhammed (pbuh). We read the Quran, we fast, we pray, we observe the pillars of Islam. A very simple faith, based on reward for observing what is prescribed and fear of punishment for contravention. Even the term "sufi" was never part of our vocabulary.Yet our parents were enlightened enough to want to educate their daughters as well as sons, so that we would be able to stand on our own two feet. Thus we are Oxbridge educated, have worked at the most senior levels with the brightest in our generation and.....yes....and life continues to intervene:-)
I have found myself questioning at the times of (apparently) great success as well as dark times when there was no-one else to turn to but God.... why this? where next? what next? and without fail, on every single occasion I have asked that, doors have opened, books have appeared, a path has cleared, light has shone... Something that started many years ago has simply repeated periodically each time my need to learn intensified. Why I have journeyed in this direction I have no idea. I have simply learned somewhere along the line to trust what unfolds...
I have not participated in any organised groups. I never felt a call to do so and, in all honesty I think was most constrained from doing so because I feared that my Muslim family and friends would neither understand nor support my questions and endeavours. There was a time when I was even concerned if they saw what I was reading....These days, I no longer hide my books and I have a network of friends (including some Muslims) with whom I share my questioning...
This time, as I fell to my knees, I found everywhere I turned words speaking of unconditional love...of our direct access to God... that EVERYTHING is possible through Him. I have always been taught this, yet for the first time I know it...
I did not come looking for subud. I was trying to locate a local sufi group, and got distracted by something called subud (lol, don't you just love accidental encounters)...
So far, no-one from my local subud group has responded to my emails contact. I feel fine about that; if it's the place I am meant to be, it will happen, if not then in the meantime I have encountered all of you wonderful souls here For the rest, there is no choice for me any more. Some days I am so profoundly contented at the touch of God in my heart. Some days I want to scream because I know a lesson that I somehow did not get first time round is reappearing in even more strongly. Most days I am in awe of miracles that smooth my path and the unfolding of connections and blessings I could never have imagined. I've experienced the most profound sadness...the deepest joy, and at times it is as if my heart has been broken open to a position where love simultaneously pours in and out through no will of my own. So many miracles... it feels somehow inappropriate to seek to even describe...
So these are all reasons why I ask what I do. I grew up on Bradford and returned here recently after many years away. I was increasingly resisting what I felt as negative/low energy here these last months (and it's interesting how those who have never lived here have a media-created image of the place), yet as I have realised recently that this is the perfect place for me to be right now, doors have begun to open which may cause me to move. Who am I to question lol; all I can do is pray for only He knows what lies ahead.
As for David's question regarding what we are allowed and not allowed to do as Muslims, I am not a scholar and I ask Allah's forgiveness for any wrongs. I act on the encouragement given to us in the Quran to seek knowledge. I have never asked a scholar whether what I do is right or wrong, and I do not intend to at this time. I pray Allah's guidance and I trust what unfolds will serve my faith. I think that is what interests me most about latihan : I rely so much on doing what feels right, and it's when I ignore that guidance that things go wrong. Allah created all, and that too is His gift, His sound.
I know now more than I have ever known that this really is a lifetime's journey. If there comes a day when I am challenged (in whatever way) by more dogmatic Muslim belief, then at that time I will also ask for Allah's guidance and His mercy. I truly believe He sees what is in our hearts, and when we really, really want to serve as best we may, He will forgive our mistakes. For me, right now, that feels like an acceptable place to be. For many Muslims, I suspect it would be untenable.. That is between them and Allah, as much as it is between me and Him. I was raised to believe that Allah is loving and kind, and the fear that is so much associated with Islam these days is not part of my heritage. Ironically, I feel more free at this time to explore my faith than I ever have...
Forgive the many, many words. I hope they shed some light on what I ask.
May we each be guided to Be as best serves God's will.
Thank-you all for your blessings. May you receive the same in great abundance.
Love and blessings
Billy
Ohhh, and I don't know about sunshine, it's been snowing here today. Very pretty it looked too!
Ismail - Feb 21, 2005 - 11:09 PM
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Hi David,
"Subud and Islam": a "hot" topic raises its head once again! 
A friend of mine - a respected Sufi and Imam in this country - once raised the question of metaphorical verses in the Quran with some socalled "Islamic literalists". He is a native Arabic speaker. They were forced to concede.
Many items of belief in Islam - particularly the essentials - are quite clear and unarguable.
I would suggest, if you want a genuine answer to your question, you look within. This may require some study.
I would suggest Seyyed Hossein Nasr's "Ideals and Realities of Islam"; Akbar S. Ahmed's "Living Islam" and Abdullah Saeed's "Islam in Australia" as good starting points. All authors have lived and studied in both East and West and know Western culture.
There are many Islamic points of view.
I would suggest that the Wahabbis (Saudi Arabia) would condemn Subud out of hand.
Malaysia, progressive, middle of the road, does not allow Malays (by legal definition Sunni Muslims of the Shafi school) to join Subud. I believe it is considered a "bidat" (religious innovation) there.
I have the honour and privilege to be personally acquainted with some legitimate Muslim Sufis, both here and abroad.
Two Sufi sheikhs have advised me that they consider Subud a bit of a downmarket "take" of Sufism.
The fact that many Muslims in Subud don't follow the Sharia is a matter of concern to them.
Likewise they are concerned that there is no guidance to members like that provided personally by a Sufi sheikh.
Subud is seen as marginal to Islam, if not outside completely, by most Nonsubud Muslims who know about it.
Has Subud failed its Muslim members?
In many ways some past Subud "leaders" in the West have not helped.
But many Nonmuslim Subud members feel the same way.
The Islamic Council of NSW has at least one Alim (religious scholar). I believe the Central Sydney Mosque at Zetland has some decent people associated with it.
If you wrote to Abdullah Saeed - at Melbourne University - and asked him your question you might find it illuminating. Most intelligent Muslims in this country don't know about Subud.
Regards,
Ismail
Ismail - Feb 21, 2005 - 11:35 PM
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Dear Sister Kallibilly,
Many thanks for your last posting.
I feel you have been truly blessed in your search.
Although not an "ethnic Muslim" I do have, Alhamdolillah, some legitimate
"ethnic Muslim" ancestry. I am very grateful to the lady for marrying an ancestor in the good old days because through her our line connects directly with Khwaja Moinuddin Hasan Chishti of Ajmer.
My father died last year. He always wondered about an "Indian connection" in the family. He never knew!
My two daughters are incredibly proud of the connection but realise it is something they have to live up to without boasting!
To use Ozspeak: "You're OK Luv. She'll be right."
I hope Subud Bradford treats you well. You deserve it!
You are blessed. May He continue to bless, guide and protect you.
It's all happening, Sister. Trust in Him. He will never let you down.
Apologies for my sense of humour (?)
As Sallaamu Aleikum.
Warmest regards,
Ismail
davidweek - Feb 21, 2005 - 11:59 PM
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Hi Ismael
Thank you for the excellent roadmap -- exactly what I was looking for.
I may be back, if the road leads to any further questions.
Take care
David
Ismail - Feb 22, 2005 - 03:05 AM
Post subject:
No problems David.
May you be blessed and guided to wherever the Good Lord wishes to guide you.
All books should be available through a good local library, or failing that, try the Fisher Library at Sydney Uni.
"Subud and Islam" is a touchy subject.
I am delighted that someone like Kallibilly has said what she did.
Thank God - quite literally - for people like her.
Take care.
Ismail
michaelf - Nov 10, 2005 - 08:02 AM
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To Muslims who are Subud members
I have heard from Subud Muslims that they strongly believe in the saying: "There will be no Priophet after Muhammed". The one in Hong Kong who told me this saying used that as the basis for leaving Subud.
This implied that Bapak was a Prophet which he emphatically worked hard to dispell as well as to turn members toward finding the Divine within themselves and to not in any way worship him or his image after he died. He stated that only God can know the content of a human being when he was queried regarding his own level.
Varindra Vittachi noted to the Hong Kong member that this saying puts man higher than God (or Allah).
With proper respect to all views,
Michaelf
davidweek - Nov 10, 2005 - 02:33 PM
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Hi Michael
The "saying" that there will be no prophet after Muhammed is not a saying, but the Qur'an. The Qur'an, in turn, is the word of God transcribed by Muhammad. To say, then, as you say Vittachi did, that "this saying puts man higher than God (or Allah)" is profoundly insulting to the Islamic faith. You might as well say that the Qur'an, and thereby the entire basis of Islam, puts Muhammad above God. I'm not surprised the fellow left.
If we are serious about being open to all faiths, we might start by taking care not to insult them. As a start to not insulting them, we might begin by not publishing commentaries about religions under the Subud name or symbol. That seems like simple common sense to me.
Look at this site, for instance:
http://www.bekkoame.ne.jp/~sam/SUBUD/origine.html
linked to a page in Japanese topped by Subud symbol -- I assume the home page of Subud Japan?
It states: "...a story which, of course, is closely related to Bapak himself who, by the grace of God, is willed to be a channel for God's grace to every adult of the various races and religions who is willing to receive and follow the way of the latihan kejiwaan of Subud. In the beginning, Bapak himself did not expect that he would be able to receive so great a grace from Almighty God because, according to the stories told about man, this can be received only by prophets and messengers of Almighty God, wheareas Bapak is just an ordinary man, born in this present century."
First, to makes claims to know what the will of God is for everybody, to claim to be a channel for God's grace to flow to all the people of the world... well, you might as well just say "Bapak is a prophet" and be done with it.
In two states of Malaysia, as you may know, Subud is classified as a "deviant sect" of Islam. The Bahais have forbidden their members to join Subud, because Subud's publications contradict the Bahai faith. The Catholic Church has declared, not surprisingly, that Subud is a religion... All of this could be avoided by simply not publishing teachings about Jesus, Mohammed, religions in general.
This site -- http://www.whatissubud.net/whatissubud/about_relig.html -- repeats the old Subud saw that "Subud is in accordance with the main religions". Subud contradicts religions constantly. On the same page we have "Most striking of all is when Bapak spoke of Jesus and of the manner of his death. He points up the fact and reality of the crucifixion and empathises with the suffering on the cross in a way perhaps unprecedented for a Muslim." Unprecedented is too mild a word, since according to the Qur'an, Jesus was not crucified. But no matter -- Subud apparently believes that the Qur'an is not to be believed.
I'm not a Muslim, but I certainly know when someone is insulting Islam.
The only way to avoid contradicting people's faiths, is not to publish religious pronouncements. This, we should find easy to do, because we are, by our own lights "not a religion", have "no teaching", and "contradict no religion".
Unfortunately, we are massively unable to stay in integrity with such simple precepts. 99% of Subud publications are riddled with religious teachings, and most of those contradict one or another of every religion on the face of earth.
When do you propose that we change that state of affairs?
David
davidweek - Nov 10, 2005 - 02:34 PM
Post subject:
Hi Michael
The "saying" that there will be no prophet after Muhammed is not a saying, but the Qur'an. The Qur'an, in turn, is the word of God transcribed by Muhammad. To say, then, as you say Vittachi did, that "this saying puts man higher than God (or Allah)" is profoundly insulting to the Islamic faith. You might as well say that the Qur'an, and thereby the entire basis of Islam, puts Muhammad above God. I'm not surprised the fellow left.
If we are serious about being open to all faiths, we might start by taking care not to insult them. As a start to not insulting them, we might begin by not publishing commentaries about religions under the Subud name or symbol. That seems like simple common sense to me.
Look at this site, for instance:
http://www.bekkoame.ne.jp/~sam/SUBUD/origine.html
linked to a page in Japanese topped by Subud symbol -- I assume the home page of Subud Japan?
It states: "...a story which, of course, is closely related to Bapak himself who, by the grace of God, is willed to be a channel for God's grace to every adult of the various races and religions who is willing to receive and follow the way of the latihan kejiwaan of Subud. In the beginning, Bapak himself did not expect that he would be able to receive so great a grace from Almighty God because, according to the stories told about man, this can be received only by prophets and messengers of Almighty God, wheareas Bapak is just an ordinary man, born in this present century."
First, to makes claims to know what the will of God is for everybody, to claim to be a channel for God's grace to flow to all the people of the world... well, you might as well just say "Bapak is a prophet" and be done with it.
In two states of Malaysia, as you may know, Subud is classified as a "deviant sect" of Islam. The Bahais have forbidden their members to join Subud, because Subud's publications contradict the Bahai faith. The Catholic Church has declared, not surprisingly, that Subud is a religion... All of this could be avoided by simply not publishing teachings about Jesus, Mohammed, religions in general.
This site -- http://www.whatissubud.net/whatissubud/about_relig.html -- repeats the old Subud saw that "Subud is in accordance with the main religions". Subud contradicts religions constantly. On the same page we have "Most striking of all is when Bapak spoke of Jesus and of the manner of his death. He points up the fact and reality of the crucifixion and empathises with the suffering on the cross in a way perhaps unprecedented for a Muslim." Unprecedented is too mild a word, since according to the Qur'an, Jesus was not crucified. But no matter -- Subud apparently believes that the Qur'an is not to be believed.
I'm not a Muslim, but I certainly know when someone is insulting Islam.
The only way to avoid contradicting people's faiths, is not to publish religious pronouncements. This, we should find easy to do, because we are, by our own lights "not a religion", have "no teaching", and "contradict no religion".
Unfortunately, we are massively unable to stay in integrity with such simple precepts. 99% of Subud publications are riddled with religious teachings, and most of those contradict one or another of every religion on the face of earth.
When do you propose that we change that state of affairs?
David
MahmudHenry - Nov 10, 2005 - 07:02 PM
Post subject:
When we say Subud does not contradict religions, we refer to two things.
First, Subud as a description of an idealised human being, which is what Bapak explained the term means, of course has no teaching, and so cannot contradict anything.
Secondly, we refer to "true religions". Subud does not contradict true Islam, true Buddhism, true Christianity and true Judaism. Being a Subud Muslim, I have no choice but to think that the Wahhabi's who condemn Subud out of hand are bad and wrong. I'd say the same about the fundamentalist Christians who are against Subud.
I believe it is important to be as truthful as we can about what we understand in Subud. Bapak said lots of things which would upset fundamentalist muslims. He said Subud members do not have to make the pilgrimage to Mecca, as the Latihan itself fulfills that function for them. He told muslim women to take their headscarves off during latihan, as they are all sisters.
By the way, I think the "saying" you point to is not based on the Koran but the hadith. The prophet said "I am the last" - but of course he didn't describe himself as a prophet, but a messenger. I personally interpret it as meaning that he is the last in the line of prophets bringing the great religions, not the last person to receive a way to worship God.
On the Catholics thing - are you sure about that? I heard that in Innsbruck, some Catholics asked their priests for permission to join Subud, and they were granted it. Which suggests the Priests did not see Subud as a religion and did not view it as contradicting Catholicism.
michaelf - Nov 11, 2005 - 10:28 AM
Post subject:
Henry wrote:
When we say Subud does not contradict religions, we refer to two things.
By the way, I think the "saying" you point to is not based on the Koran but the hadith. The prophet said "I am the last" - but of course he didn't describe himself as a prophet, but a messenger. I personally interpret it as meaning that he is the last in the line of prophets bringing the great religions, not the last person to receive a way to worship God.
.
Henry
I am very grateful for your clarification of Prophet Muhammed's statement which meant at the time he was the last in the line of prophets and not as a prediction that there would never be another. This answers my question and fully satisfies my interest in posting.
In Varindra's book, "Reporter In Subud", he refers to the time when Bapak referred to only 5 Prophets, Abraham, Moses, Muhammed and Jesus [which is disturbing to some Christians who hold Jesus Divine]. Varindra queried Bapak something like, "And the fifth?" to which Bapak retorted, "Adam !". Bapak often emphatically denied that he was a Prophet.
Kind regards,
Michael
davidweek - Nov 11, 2005 - 01:03 PM
Post subject:
Hi Henry
>When we say Subud does not contradict religions, we refer to two things. First, Subud as a description of an idealised human being, which is what Bapak explained the term means, of course has no teaching, and so cannot contradict anything.
So, you -- like Pak Subuh -- are a follower of ibn 'Arabi, Abdul Qadir Jilani, and the Qadiri doctrine of al-Insan al-Kamil -- "the Perfect Man" -- to which Pak Subuh explicitly refers, but which most of his readers don't recognise.
It's a teaching. If you want to follow that teaching, I think you might want to follow up with Dirk Campbell, who well understands the Pak Subuh's Sufi roots; Muhtar Holland, who undertook the widely respected translations of Jilani's texts; and Ruslan Moore, who published them. If you are going to take up Pak Subuh's advice and follow a religion -- in your case Qadiri Sufism -- why not do so fully.
To suggest that this particular Sufi theology is "not a teaching" and "cannot contradict anything" seems ingenuous. It most certainly is a teaching, and it most certainly does contradict other theologies. Pak Subuh was taught it. Where do you think he learned those Arabic terms?
theological barrow you push.
> Secondly, we refer to "true religions". Subud does not contradict true Islam, true Buddhism, true Christianity and true Judaism. Being a Subud Muslim, I have no choice but to think that the Wahhabi's who condemn Subud out of hand are bad and wrong. I'd say the same about the fundamentalist Christians who are against Subud.
I don't know who this "we" that your refer to is, but I don't think its the majority of Subud members, and its certainly not the majority of the long-time members. We long-time members do not believe that "we" know "true" Islam, etc, the implication being that the 800m Muslims, 1.3bn Christians, etc follow something other than "true" religion. Such statements are profoundly disrespectful, not something that we in Subud wish to be associated with. I put it to you that statements your personal ideological barrow, and nothing to do with the mainstream Subud community.
Further, I don't know what "Subud Muslim" means. If it means an understanding of Islam is derived solely from Pak Subuh's talks, without knowledge of the Al-Qur'an, without knowing Arabic, without adherence to the Five Pillars, then I would suggest that this is not Islam at all.
Islam is a religion. Subud is not. "Subud Islam" is an oxymoron.
> I believe it is important to be as truthful as we can about what we understand in Subud. Bapak said lots of things which would upset fundamentalist muslims.
Yes, but for a very simple and well-known reason: he was not a Santri Muslim, but an Abangan Muslim. Abangan Islam, or kejawen, mixes elements of Sufism, Hinduism, and Javanese ancestor worship. This is apparent in all the Talks. They are straight up-and-down kejawen.
It is this syncreticism that makes Pak Subuh's teaching upsetting to Santri Muslims. There's nothing unusual about that. In most of the Islamic world, Abangan Islam is looked at as dubious, and the kejawen ideology that you find in Pak Subuh's talks are not unique in this sense.
Again, it would seem if someone is interested in following Pak Subuh in becoming an Abangan Muslim, the first step might be to undertake an education in Pak Subuh's religion. But Pak Subuh suggested we all follow our own religion: not that we all follow HIS religion.
> By the way, I think the "saying" you point to is not based on the Koran but the hadith. The prophet said "I am the last" - but of course he didn't describe himself as a prophet, but a messenger.
The "saying" is not a hadith. It's roots are well established in the Qur'an itself, such as but Surah 5, verse 3; Surah 33, verse 40. However, I suggest you talk to the elders at the your mosque. They will instruct you better than a non-Muslim such as myself could.
> I personally interpret it as meaning that he is the last in the line of prophets bringing the great religions, not the last person to receive a way to worship God.
Here we go again: in your mind you divide the world into "great religions" -- and the assumption that others outside these religions are not "great".
I don't where these presumptions of knowing "true" Islam, "true" Christianity, or "true" Christianity comef from, or the idea that there are "great" vs non-great religions, but they are not part of Subud. Subud is not a religion, and therefore has not teachings on such things. Pak Subuh's religion, being a religion, of course has many such teachings on such matters, but one should not conflate Kejawen with Subud.
> On the Catholics thing - are you sure about that? I heard that in Innsbruck, some Catholics asked their priests for permission to join Subud, and they were granted it. Which suggests the Priests did not see Subud as a religion and did not view it as contradicting Catholicism.
This I hear from Mhd Mansur Medeiros, who has it from a priest he knows. Mansur knows his stuff. Here in Sydney, we lost several probationers for this reason. Have I found the definitive Vatican document? No. But on the basis of such anecdotal evidence, and the self-evident fact that Subud publications are riddled with Sufi theology, cosmology and psychology, all presented in an an unself-conscious way, I would say that the balance of probabilities is that the Catholics would appraise Subud as a religion.
If it looks like duck, and walks like a duck...
David
MahmudHenry - Nov 11, 2005 - 05:57 PM
Post subject:
David, it is absolutely absurd to argue that the idea of human beings being able to improve themselves is one persons teaching! The idea is as old as human beings themselves!
Forgive me for being so bold as to say this, but I seriously doubt that you are an expert on all the different Islamic sects.
The difference between Subud and religions like Buddhism is that in Buddhism etc. you have a guru who tells you what to do. In Subud we gain understanding of the world through the Latihan.
You can test the inner quality of each religion, which can give you can understanding of their nature beyond what practitioners of that religion know from their studying.
By the way, great can mean not only important, but also big.
This whole categorising people into sects - he is a Santri Muslim, you are a Abangan Muslim, does not help us gain knowledge. All you are trying to do is dismiss what other people say by claiming they are just a product of their background. It is a very bad habit.
And it is stupid to say that Bapak is a product of his background. The mystical culture of Java is and was all about meditation and full of "smells and bells" ritual. The need for ritual is notoriously absent from what Bapak says, and Bapak was extremely critical, if not condemnatory, towards meditation. Sufism is all about studying your way to God. Bapak was very against this. He was also against gurus, who make up the central mechanism for the practise of Sufism.
So if it doesn't look like a duck, and doesn't walk like a duck, go figure.
davidweek - Nov 12, 2005 - 03:42 AM
Post subject:
Hi Henry
First, let me apologise for the hastiness and reactivity of my last post. There are many aspects of it which I now regret.
Understand that part of this reactivity comes from the origin of this conversation: one of our "brothers" left Subud, stating his reason that Subud was offending his religion. Because he is our brother, our first response -- in my mind -- should be to ask how we offended him, and if he's no longer available, to look at our own communal behaviour very carefully, and see why we might have offended him. I would do as much if one of my daughters walked out of the house. If we really believe in the family of humanity, we should be as caring, and willing to be self-critical.
What upsets me about Michael's post is he assumes that what's going on is the departed brother (a) didn't understand Subud, and (b) he adds insult upon insult, by quoting Vittachi to the effect that an important Islamic tenet is just wrong anyway. That to me does not seem aligned with our core communal values of being (a) not a religion -- and therefore in my view NOT having any strong "Subud" views on matters of individual religious belief, faith or dogma, which should be left purely to the individual. That means that every Subud house and centre should be clear and clean of any particular dogmas or theories, so that a person of any faith may enter, and not feel their faith being denied or insulted.
In my view, the offense happens easily, because we mix religious beliefs -- and in particular Pak Subuh's Sufi beliefs -- in with Subud, as though they are Subud beliefs. (Subud has no beliefs, right!) Then, when Sufi beliefs contradict the Modernism Islam (for instance), Subud gets the blame. I think it was Isaac Goff who suggested that ALL Subud publications bear the warning "The contents are the views of the author, not of Subud."
>David, it is absolutely absurd to argue that the idea of human beings being able to improve themselves is one persons teaching! The idea is as old as human beings themselves!
I'm not arguing that. I am simply stating that Pak Subuh's model of human improvement is the model of al-Insan al-Kamil (the Perfect or Complete Human Being), it is an Islamic model, it is more particularly a Sufi model, it is was first formulated by ibn 'Arabi, it was further developed by al-Jilani, and all of this is just a matter of historical record, acknowledged by Pak Subuh, and documented by several of our Islamic Subud brothers who have taken interest in this line.
If we present a Sufi model of human development as somehow being part of Subud, then we will contradict the Christian model, which is different, the Deist model, the Buddhist model, the Hindu model, and so forth. We are not in the business of promoting particular religious doctrines or models, and therefore we are not in the busines of promoting the model that Pak Subuh used in his talks because that was HIS religion, and that was HIS model. Do you disagree?
Pak Subuh said that he was not here to impart models, but only the latihan, and that he only gave these talks at the insistence of the members, in order to "satisfy" their hearts and minds, so that those organs would get out of the way and let the latihan do its work. But when the models start driving our brothers away, or perhaps even keeping them away, it might be time to seek other forms of diversion for our monkey minds.
> Forgive me for being so bold as to say this, but I seriously doubt that you are an expert on all the different Islamic sects.
I am absolutely not an expert on any of the Islamic sects, and who have to look up even the difference between Sunni and Shia to remind myself. But because of my upbringing, and my interest in and devotion to Subud, I have looked at the particular history of Pak Subuh's religion in quite some detail, and I have sought to understand the basics of Islam, Christianity and Buddhism, in order that I might better appreciate them (and not insult their followers when I meet them!)
> The difference between Subud and religions like Buddhism is that in Buddhism etc. you have a guru who tells you what to do. In Subud we gain understanding of the world through the Latihan.
Well, I do know quite a bit about Buddhism, and I know many practising Buddhists, and that's the not the case. In Buddhism, practitioners are told to take nothing on authority, conduct their own investigations into the nature of human experiences, and to make their own conclusions. Buddhist teachers are like helpers, in that they give advice only when asked, and it is nothing but advice. Most of the advice involves doing particular exercises, which may help the student find for themselves the answer they are trying to seek.
> You can test the inner quality of each religion, which can give you can understanding of their nature beyond what practitioners of that religion know from their studying.
You claim that through the latihan you acquire an understanding of other people's religions which is superior to their own. I really don't know what to say about such a belief, only that most religions and systems of ethics would counsel against such hubris. I've heard this particulary belief a number of times in Subud, and in my view its one of the obstacles to Subud's spread in the world.
> By the way, great can mean not only important, but also big.
Yes. But why not say "big" then. I can imagine the Jews, reduced now by the Holocaust to only 12m people, being told their religion is not "great" because it is not very big, or the Zoroastrians, who are even smaller, being told so, even though many core tenets of Christianity and Islam were adopted from Zoroastrianism.
> This whole categorising people into sects - he is a Santri Muslim, you are a Abangan Muslim, does not help us gain knowledge. All you are trying to do is dismiss what other people say by claiming they are just a product of their background. It is a very bad habit.
I am not trying to dismiss what Pak Subuh is saying by claiming that he is a product (not "just" a product) of his background, but seeking to better understand what he is saying. You are a product of your background; so am I. But if John holds individual liberty and civil rights as very important, it helps me to understand John to know that he is an American, and to know something about the culture, politics and history of America. If Pak Subuh believes that the invidual soul originates from God, passes down to earth through seven levels, and then has to rise back through though seven levels to return to God, then it helps me to understand his worldview, his frame of reference, "where he is coming from", to know that he is a traditional Javanese Muslim (kejawen), whose religion is largely informed by the teachings of Sufism, and that Sufism does indeed teach that model.
It also helps me to know that kejawen is not the same as the Islam they practice in the rest of the world, and that therefore I should not take such statements about Islam as representative of Islamic beliefs elsewhere.
Such an understanding of a person's beliefs does not diminish what he is saying. It illuminates it, by setting it in context. Similarly, I seek to understand my own cultural history, in order to understand for myself, my own beliefs -- their origin, nature, strengths and limits. There is nothing derogatory about it.
> And it is stupid to say that Bapak is a product of his background.
I don't understand why. All humans beings are products of their background, and as Pak Subuh tells us, he is just an ordinary human being.
> The mystical culture of Java is and was all about meditation and full of "smells and bells" ritual.
Not so. The mystical culture of Java is about the development of the jiwa, and the rasa diri or "inner feeling". I think that you are painting a cartoon portrait of the religion of Java.
> The need for ritual is notoriously absent from what Bapak says, and Bapak was extremely critical, if not condemnatory, towards meditation.
Well, Pak Subuh criticized Hindu and Buddhist forms of meditation, but not only practiced but actively promoted the Sufi mantric form of meditation known as the dhikr. Many Cilandak members I know practice this form of meditation, because Pak Subuh advised them to.
As to ritual: Pak Subuh, like any person raised in the religion of Java, himself carried out a number of rituals, including the Islamic washing of the body when a person has died, prescribed Islamic prayers, the rituals of the selamatan cycle, which is non-Islamic, and so forth.
> Sufism is all about studying your way to God. Bapak was very against this. He was also against gurus, who make up the central mechanism for the practise of Sufism.
In order to better understand my own upbringing, I did, as I say look into the roots of Sufism. Sufism is not about studying as a way to God. Sufism is about the direct apprehension of and contact with God. Sufism is about the infusion into a human being of God's Grace, which is called in Sufism "baraka". Sufism holds that the experience of God is beyond the heart and mind, and the only approach to God in favour of direct experience. Consider the following Sufi saying: "There are three ways of knowing a thing. Take for instance a flame. One can be told of the flame, one can see the flame with his own eyes, and finally one can reach out and be burned by it. In this way, we Sufis seek to be burned by God." Or this, about the Sufi master Bhai Sahib: "Bhai Sahib means elder brother, because traditionally the Sufi sheikh is 'without a face, without a name.' Sufis do not believe in personality worship, or in idealizing the teacher. The teacher is just a guide, a stepping stone from the world of illusion to the world of reality... Later he said, 'I am not going to teach you anything. If I teach you things you will forget them. Instead I will give you experiences.' " <http://www.goldensufi.org/SufiMeditationoftheHeart.html>
There are many, many other aspects of Sufism which are recognisably re-iterated by Pak Subuh. But why is this surprising?
Pak Subuh advised that the latihan is not a religion, and advised people to find their own, and find the truth within their own religion. His religion was the religion of Java. He spoke in terms of that religion, using the models and terminology of that religion, to describe his own understanding of the latihan. Since he was not a prophet, his understanding of his human experience is a human understanding, shaped in the way that all human understanding is shaped. Since he was not a super-human but -- in his own words -- an ordinary human, these understandings are ordinary understanding, like yours or mine.
In so saying, I know that there is a some members who act as though Pak Subuh is a prophet and his talks are revelations from God. Do you think that?
I attach a letter that Pak Subuh wrote to Rofé some years ago. Sumarah is another movement from central Java. The Nine Walis are the nine Sufi teachers credited for bringing Islam to Java, and the Seven Heavens is the Sufi doctrine they taught.
Best
David
From Subuh to Rofé, 1953, clarifying his position with regard to Sumarah:
"With reference to the person whose training resembles Subud, and who claims to be a pupil of Sukinohartono, this is correct. Sukinohartono was formerly a pupil of Prawirodisastra, who lived in Djogjakarta, now deceased. He in turn was a pupil of Wignosupartono, still living in Djogjakarta. The latter obtained this contact from me in 1932, when I was still resident in Semarang, just after I had received the revelation from the Almighty.
"Wignosupartono then, was the first person whom I ever trained or instructed. He has many pupils in Djogjakarta ...
"To return to Sukinohartono, Prawirodisastra mentioned before his death that this pupil of his had not long been studying, and that his inner state was not very advanced. His commentaries on the Seven Heavens and such matters
could have been obtained either from the stories of the Nine Sages, or from a book I myself wrote in 1934, called
Djatimakna, or 'True Facts'. All commentaries required for spiritual matters are to be found in that book.
"...Sukinohartono ... eventually established his own movement with the name of Sumarah (surrender). Its methods remain those I use in Subud. They cannot deny that they have not yet obtained a system of their own, that is to say, they have not themselves been vouchsafed a Divine revelation..."
[PS from David: The word Pak Subuh uses for "revelation" is "wahyu", and the claim to possess wahyu is widespread in Java, not only by spiritual teachers, but also by politicians. Wahyu is said to be marked by the descent of a ball of light, especially at night.
"Wahyu : godly spirit or force, divine radiance. Its appearance in the vicinity of a claimant to the throne is a sign of royalty; perhaps the most convincing means of legitimation for the Javanese. Often visualized as a dazzling blue, green or white ball of light streaking through the night sky. Teja and wahyu are both emanation of mystical power normally concentrated in an individual. Thus wahyu is a concentration of the powers which animate the universe visible in transit, as extract from the cosmos." Hardjanta, The Kalki Avatar, p.135.
Mhd Mansur tells me that even village chiefs tell of the descent of wahyu on their houses, to confirm the legitimacy of their appointment.]
davidweek - Nov 12, 2005 - 04:14 AM
Post subject: No rituals in Subud?
Hi Henry
"The higher levels of Javanese society, the prijaji, etc., who are abangan, practice extreme forms of ascetism, magico-mysticism and meditation. They utilize the guru-cela relationship of the Hindu system within sects or movements. These people practice slametan or ritual meals which are held at various points in the life cycle, e.g. 7th month of pregnancy, at childbirth, at the falling of the umbilical cord, the first contact of the child with the earth, at circumcision, at the presentation of the bride price, at the wedding, at the burial, at mortuary rites and at the 7th, 40th, 100th and 1000th day after death."
<http://health%20bulletins%20@%20www.ccg.org/english/s/b7_9.html>
So: no rituals in Subud? Hmmm...
David
michaelf - Nov 12, 2005 - 07:56 AM
Post subject:
[quote="davidweek"]Hi Henry
First, let me apologise for the hastiness and reactivity of my last post. There are many aspects of it which I now regret.
Understand that part of this reactivity comes from the origin of this conversation: one of our "brothers" left Subud, stating his reason that Subud was offending his religion. Because he is our brother, our first response -- in my mind -- should be to ask how we offended him, and if he's no longer available, to look at our own communal behaviour very carefully, and see why we might have offended him. I would do as much if one of my daughters walked out of the house. If we really believe in the family of humanity, we should be as caring, and willing to be self-critical.
What upsets me about Michael's post is he assumes that what's going on is the departed brother (a) didn't understand Subud, and (b) he adds insult upon insult, by quoting Vittachi to the effect that an important Islamic tenet is just wrong anyway. That to me does not seem aligned with our core communal values of being (a) not a religion -- and therefore in my view NOT having any strong "Subud" views on matters of individual religious belief, faith or dogma, which should be left purely to the individual. That means that every Subud house and centre should be clear and clean of any particular dogmas or theories, so that a person of any faith may enter, and not feel their faith being denied or insulted.
Best
David
David
I forgot when we met at WC 2005 to ask for Istimah's email address. Your folks were overly hospitable in Cilandak in 1972 inviting me home for dinner and several discussions. Could you send it now to me as a subudlife private message?
From Henry's lucid definition of the word "last", you seem to have taken the wrong turn in your 2-seater, open-top high speed sports car ending up in a recently fertilized field.
Varindra knew the party, a helper who was active in Subud HK over 20 years, hosting the latihan meeting. He categorically criticized the member for taking the saying to mean that after Muhammed there will never be another Prophet, as you persist in doing now. I will post another note in relation to Bapak denying tht he was a Saint or a Prophet which, quixotically, the HK member jumped to that conclusion. If the uinimaginable Power of His Will gave that information to Muhammed, the Messenger, about 1,600 years ago then the extinction of all humanity on earth is not far away, in my most humble extrapolation.
I am comfortable with Henry's interpretation, as I presume Varindra, himself a convert from Sri Lankan Buddhism to Islam also understood. You perversely have twisted this into criticism of Muhammed which was not the case. I think you should put your impulsive reactions to test by your own Inner Guidance before posting volumes. Bapak is famous for telling us to not believe anything, even what he says, until testing it for ourselves. Please use more testing. Raymond von Sommers' "My Life In Subud" has an excerpt [pgs 87-87] from Bapak's 3rd Talk recorded at Wellington in 1963. "And as for how to limit these desires, for this we need to use the fourth desire [jatmika] to ensure that we do not use the other desires excessively.[angkara- to sow dissension, quarrel, to argue; murka - want to win, be cleverest, do not like even to be equaled; and third, keinginan - to want to possess what you see; fourth jatmika - gentle desire that likes to give way, to be in harmony, to show love and affection, to help one's fellow human beings. ]" Bapak noted all the desires are necessary for our everyday lives. I have striven 40 years to achieve balance.
As for myself, a Helper in HK from 1967, 3 or 4 of us continued for several years to accept the invitation to the home of the former Subud member to share dinner to break fast the first few days after Ramadan started, which was a culture for decades in Subud HK. We are the same friends we were when we were all in Subud, In that way nothing has changed. Hong Kong is such a small group there is an unusual bond of lifelong friendship which includes some who left Subud a long time ago.
Kind regards,
Michael
MahmudHenry - Nov 12, 2005 - 11:43 AM
Post subject:
Quote:
Hi Henry
"The higher levels of Javanese society, the prijaji, etc., who are abangan, practice extreme forms of ascetism, magico-mysticism and meditation. They utilize the guru-cela relationship of the Hindu system within sects or movements. These people practice slametan or ritual meals which are held at various points in the life cycle, e.g. 7th month of pregnancy, at childbirth, at the falling of the umbilical cord, the first contact of the child with the earth, at circumcision, at the presentation of the bride price, at the wedding, at the burial, at mortuary rites and at the 7th, 40th, 100th and 1000th day after death."
<http://health%20bulletins%20@%20www.ccg.org/english/s/b7_9.html>
So: no rituals in Subud? Hmmm...
Sorry, but what does any of that have to do with Subud?
michaelf - Nov 14, 2005 - 09:20 AM
Post subject:
davidweek wrote:
Hi Michael
Look at this site, for instance:
http://www.bekkoame.ne.jp/~sam/SUBUD/origine.html
linked to a page in Japanese topped by Subud symbol -- I assume the home page of Subud Japan?
It states: "...a story which, of course, is closely related to Bapak himself who, by the grace of God, is willed to be a channel for God's grace to every adult of the various races and religions who is willing to receive and follow the way of the latihan kejiwaan of Subud. In the beginning, Bapak himself did not expect that he would be able to receive so great a grace from Almighty God because, according to the stories told about man, this can be received only by prophets and messengers of Almighty God, wheareas Bapak is just an ordinary man, born in this present century."
First, to makes claims to know what the will of God is for everybody, to claim to be a channel for God's grace to flow to all the people of the world... well, you might as well just say "Bapak is a prophet" and be done with it.
David
David
I looked at the site but it is not the site that "makes claims to know what is the will of God", it is a quotation on the site taken from "Subud" by Robert Lyle published by Humanus Ltd. Those who wish can find that full book uploaded at <http://www.subud.net/booksonline.shtml>
You then extrapolate, assuming Subud Japan made the statement on the site, "...you might as well just say 'Bapak is a prophet' and be done with it." I expect you didn't read the quotation from Robert Lyle which continues after "...Bapak is just an ordinary man, born in this century. Therefore what is happen(sic) to Bapak, as related above, is something left to God who is all-knowing about all things. And since this was brought about in Bapak by God, Bapak is only obliged to perservere and receive God's gift, which it is fitting for Bapak to receive with patience, trust and sincere submission."
In Subud & The Active Life [3rd ed. 1984. pg 53] there ia an excerpt from Bapak's 3d Talk, 12 August 1959 at Coombe Springs. Bapak said:
"Follow, therefore, in the steps of God. He will lead you in the way of peace: the way which man can never find and understand alone, or, when he is on it, know how he is directed, whether it is towards the North, South, East or West. This is the way of God, and thus it is if He so wills. Therefore our aim is only to follow in His footsteps, according to what we receive from within. We need to walk and work with patience, without haste and free from the interference of our desires and thoughts, but with due consideration to receiving.
"We should never seek for men to call us wise or to acknowledge Subud as first among movements for the good of mankind. Never ! Say only that Subud is like other manifestations of the Power of God - even to those who know nothing of God, because it is God Who knows. That is why Bapak never claims to be a saint, a prophet or anything like that - never. Pak Subuh is only Pak Subuh. For it is God alone Who knows how Pak Subuh stands before God, and it is not possible for men to know it, so there is no need to say that Pak Subuh is a man who is close to God."
Taking your characteristic leap to unsubstantiated conclusions by tenuous extrapolation, David, you might just as well say that all Subud Helpers since the first ones appointed by Bapak are prophets. Each one of them "...by the Grace of God is Willed to be a channel for God's Grace to every adult of the various races and religions who is willing to follow the way of the latihan kedjiwaan of Subud".
The former Chair of Subud HK [may he R.I.P.] had a desert barnyard saying to mollify Helpers' self-importance. Many Helpers have had the experience of witnessing the opening of someone with a soul which is profoundly deeper that what I sense as that of my own.
He said that is similar to passing on a clear blue flame from a dried cow pat. Bapak was more eloquent saying it is similar to an oil lamp with low quality oil passing contact to the Great Life Force in the form of a flame to a lamp filled with pure oil.
Forgive me for appearing to chuff myself up by quoting Bapak, but this passage from Bapak [ibid pgs 45-46] appealed to me as being certainly apt to my personal case.
"Bapak considers it necessary to appoint helpers from among people outside Indonesia who have little experience in the receiving of the latihan; because it is not necessary to have attained a high level in order to open others and do latihan with them - it is quite enough if the being of these emergency helpers has become a channel through whiich the mighty Life Force can flow."
When I realized that I couldn't make the lame stand up and walk or cure the sick it was obvious to me that I was not Prophet material.
Kind regards,
Michael
davidweek - Nov 14, 2005 - 12:55 PM
Post subject:
Hi Michael
>I forgot when we met at WC 2005 to ask for Istimah's email address. Your folks were overly hospitable in Cilandak in 1972 inviting me home for dinner and several discussions. Could you send it now to me as a subudlife private message?
I will do.
> From Henry's lucid definition of the word "last", you seem to have taken the wrong turn in your 2-seater, open-top high speed sports car ending up in a recently fertilized field. Varindra knew the party, a helper who was active in Subud HK over 20 years, hosting the latihan meeting. He categorically criticized the member for taking the saying to mean that after Muhammed there will never be another Prophet, as you persist in doing now. I will post another note in relation to Bapak denying tht he was a Saint or a Prophet which, quixotically, the HK member jumped to that conclusion. If the uinimaginable Power of His Will gave that information to Muhammed, the Messenger, about 1,600 years ago then the extinction of all humanity on earth is not far away, in my most humble extrapolation.
Two points:
First is, if Varindra made a comment to a particular member, in the context of knowing him, and having a particular history with him, that's one thing. But you do not post Varindra's remarks in that context. You are posting comments about Islam on a public Subud site, for all to see. With, quite literarally (look up on your screen) the Subud symbol over them.
As Bapak said over and over again, and made clear in his only ever public speech: Subud is not a religion; Subud does not contradict any religion. Therefore, any statement by a Subud member which is about a religion, and moreover contradicts a religion, is not a Subud statement. That's my main point.
> I am comfortable with Henry's interpretation, as I presume Varindra, himself a convert from Sri Lankan Buddhism to Islam also understood. You perversely have twisted this into criticism of Muhammed which was not the case. I think you should put your impulsive reactions to test by your own Inner Guidance before posting volumes. Bapak is famous for telling us to not believe anything, even what he says, until testing it for ourselves. Please use more testing.
Why do you presume that what I say is not the result of testing? What do you presume that what I say is not the result of my Inner Guidance. I assure you, my Inner Guideance says that people should do as they say, and say they do. I assure you, that my Inner Guidance says that all of humanity are the children of God, and equally so. That when we say "we contradict no religion", and then go and do so, it doesn't look good?
I am not twisting Varindra's words. The fact is that for the majority of the Islamic world, Muhammed (phuh) is the last prophet; that this understanding is based on the Qur'an not the hadith; and that the Qur'an is not the word of Muhammed (phuh), but the word of Allah. This is the belief Islam, and I -- taking seriously the view that we in Subud do not seek to contradict ANY religion -- accept and honour this as the view of many Muslims, and do not seek to contradict them.
> Raymond von Sommers' "My Life In Subud" has an excerpt [pgs 87-87] from Bapak's 3rd Talk recorded at Wellington in 1963. "And as for how to limit these desires, for this we need to use the fourth desire [jatmika] to ensure that we do not use the other desires excessively.[angkara- to sow dissension, quarrel, to argue; murka - want to win, be cleverest, do not like even to be equaled; and third, keinginan - to want to possess what you see; fourth jatmika - gentle desire that likes to give way, to be in harmony, to show love and affection, to help one's fellow human beings. ]" Bapak noted all the desires are necessary for our everyday lives. I have striven 40 years to achieve balance.
I accept your criticism, and your direction. I accept that it is often difficult for me to ride herd on the wild horses that are my nafs, and they often get away from me. I regret when I engage in ad hominem arguments, in sarcasm, or in wordplay. I regret when I go for the either/or rather than interpersonal understanding. I advise that I talked to Raymond just yesterday, on just this matter.
But my personal flaws and weaknesses are not the whole of the matter. It's important that we in Subud abide by our published values.
> As for myself, a Helper in HK from 1967, 3 or 4 of us continued for several years to accept the invitation to the home of the former Subud member to share dinner to break fast the first few days after Ramadan started, which was a culture for decades in Subud HK. We are the same friends we were when we were all in Subud, In that way nothing has changed. Hong Kong is such a small group there is an unusual bond of lifelong friendship which includes some who left Subud a long time ago.
What could be more excellent than that?
But I think we can still take the opportunity to look among ourselves and ask "Why did they feel compelled to leave Subud?" And: "How many, for the same reason, never even came to Subud."
No guru
No teaching
No religion
No contraduction
As with many principles: very easy to state; very difficult to implement.
With respect
David
davidweek - Nov 14, 2005 - 01:06 PM
Post subject:
[quote="Henry"]
Quote:
Hi Henry
Sorry, but what does any of that have to do with Subud?
Hi Henry
In Australia, at least, observance of the selamatan cycle is commonplace among Subud members. Of the notices that I've sent out, as Chair of Subud Sydney, perhaps 90% of them -- in so far as they have been concerned with the death of a member -- have accorded with the selamatan cycle.
I find in this a contradiction. On the one hand, I see and honour those of my brothers and sisters who choose -- in their time of grief and need -- a ritual observance which they learned from Pak Subuh, which is an animist Javanese ritual.
On the other hand, when this Javanese observance is at the expense of all other religions, especially in Australia where Kejawen is non-existent, how does this align with our published values?
David
Ismail - Nov 17, 2005 - 08:12 AM
Post subject: Muslims in Subud
Hi David 
I must confess myself long absent - by choice - from Subud Life.
Long ago, when I was a student at the University of Melbourne, I probably could have continued, but I find I genuinely no longer have the interest.
I remember the forum was initiated by a lady who was a born Muslim and interested in Subud. Her insights were so on the ball that I initially thought she had been opened. I hope the Women Helpers in Bradford got back to her, but, last time I heard, they were emulating the good old tortoise in the fable.
There is a character in our local group who has taken "Bapaksay" or "Sudartosay" to the level where it has the "reverse Midas" effect. Surprisingly (?) our group appears to have been stagnant - apart from multiple hall additions - for years.
One of the problems with continued postings from Henry & MichaelF in this forum is that they take up what I consider a "Subudhist" position.
When one speaks from "the inside" quoting the likes of Varindra Vitachi; one's own possibly erroneous version of what is in the Quran (Henry) or Michael's experiences as a Helper in HK etc. it cuts no ice in the entire Muslim world: Sunni or Shiite from Sufi to Wahhabi-Salafites. Here you are discussing "akhlaq" or the very basis of Islamic belief.
That is the gist of the problem.
I think it is this "insider" point of view which puts most Muslim or other devoutly religious people of whatever colour off Subud. Because, as soon as a member of a religion quotes "Bapaksay" (possibly incorrectly attributed, though a lot of the correctly attributed stuff is also unacceptable) to the relevant religious authority they're told this is something to be left well alone.
I personally am concerned that these forums are becoming the private soap box of a few individuals who basically say very much the same thing. Again and again. Very much like one guy raves circularly after every latihan in Brisbane. And he has been doing so for years.
I amazed that someone like yourself, David, who grew up in Cilandak and saw it all firsthand, who knows Indonesian & Javanese culture is able to see outside the circle.
This really heartens me.
To me Subud stands or falls as a whole. After more than 30 years in it, having visited Cilandak, been to a World Congress, been a Helper, Chairman etc. I am not sure whether I can take what appears to be Subud becoming a pseudo-religion, which I think it has for some.
The world has enough religions.
David, to me you are a shining light of reason. Subud Sydney (I was a member there for 7 years) is one of the few vital, alive groups in this country. Long may you & the group flourish!
Henry & MichaelF, I have no wish to put you down, but I think most people outside Subud would be totally uninterested in what you have said.
That is why I think most books written by members to get others interested in Subud are read by other members.
My gut feeling is that we are already too inward looking.
This may well by my Last Post!
Most Subud forums, congresses etc remind me of the story of The Searchers after Truth in Tibet during a raging and freezing blizzard finally reaching the cave of the hermit who says - in a strong Glaswegian accent: "Aye, come in laddies and warm yersells roond my blazing candle."
Please: No One Hand Clapping!
Heretical Subud Regards,
Ismail
PS I'm quite orthodox Islamically.
HarunKennedy - Nov 17, 2005 - 10:43 AM
Post subject: Why not post the fruits of your experience in other forums?
Dear Ismail
Perhaps you have proven the sheer redundancy of the Cerebral Offloaders’ forum(s).
With the greatest love and respect, with your many years in Subud and your thoroughly alienated attitude to all things Australian Subud, you should now share something positive in the other more humanly relevant forums.
What about your experiences as a member of Subud Youth all those few years ago…
What about your take on SICA, and what you know is going on in your neck of the woods. What are your cultural interests in life?
What pastimes?
Have you thought about enterprise, because I am sure the bug of Enterprise in whatever form has bitten us all, however momentary it might have been?
Do you have any simple mind-quietening exercises for the good of the next Subud member?
For the good of humanity, lets say goodbye to the listserver culture and everything warped about it.
Please help promote the posting in the Subud Life forums of things worthy of people's attention.
Cheers for now.
Harun.
Ismail - Nov 18, 2005 - 01:47 AM
Post subject: An Answer
Dear Harun, David, Henry, Michael F & anyone else,
Harun: I take your points as put so well and kindly.
I would be the first to admit I have spilt a bucket of bile in my last post.
Nothing I said was meant to reflect on the character nor intelligence of either Henry or Michael F who I regard as decent and honorable men. If I have offended them in any way I offer an unreserved apology.
My own personal circumstances - though in no way desperate nor life threatening - may have coloured my response.
I am basically a middleaged midlevel administrator in an era of downsizing. My wife has been ill for a considerable time. But I am not desperate nor needy in any sense.
Basically I am a writer screaming to get out from behind the hyperconventional GPS "public school" or "preppy" veneer. Yes, I do write and am currently beginning to "give it a go". It is a long, painful, tortured, but possibly ultimately deeply fulfilling, road.
There was a monk - long deceased - of Downside in Somerset who wrote a book called "Moments of Light" (Hubert van Zeller) where he compared the few real soaring spiritual moments in the average person's life with holidays: wonderful, but a break from our normal life and routine. Not all life can be a holiday and we have to wait for the next one!
Of course, we can all be happy, which doesn't mean grinning like barbary apes in artificial ecstasy all one's days. This Pixie Twinkletoes vision of Subud life I have parodied elsewhere in humorous pieces. As have Dirk Campbell and Marcus Boult.
My great hero in this is Geoffrey Chaucer, who loved both people and life and laughed at people's follies. But he was never cruel or cynical. I have tried to avoid these but may not have totally succeeded.
I may or may not have useful life experiences which I could hopefully share with others. I have a whole range of interests from rugby to folk music. A lot of that is coming back after years as "Your Humble Servant" in government employ.
At the moment I think I'm genuinely resurrecting. All my life, from birth in just postcolonial India and the magic city of Bombay, which was an exotic and marvelous place, giving birth to Kipling, T H White and Salman Rushdie; through a Catholic youth in 60s Melbourne; secondary school and university; travel; marriage; children; wealth and feeling the pinch, are part of this.
I am the man I was born and everything I have ever experienced and my ancestors are very much part of this.
Subud was, and has been, a part of my life for many years. But my life is much more than my involvement in the brotherhood.
Anyway, time to both go and wish you all well.
Regards,
Ismail
MahmudHenry - Nov 18, 2005 - 10:53 PM
Post subject:
Don't worry Ismail, I'm not offended by your citicism. I am concerned though by the way you seem to view Subud members expressing their opinons truthfully as some kind of threat to our Subud brother and sister hood.
Ismail - Nov 19, 2005 - 12:21 AM
Post subject:
Dear Henry,
I have no problem with anyone expressing their own views in any forum. As someone who has hung around universities and libraries for a lifetime I am used to the cut and thrust of intellectual debate. Most of my friends are teachers, artists or people searching for love, validity or some deeper meaning in life than the acquisition of wealth, prestige or power.
Most of my closest friends - including my wife - are neither Muslim nor in Subud.
Having had almost a parody of an Anglo-Indian military/administrative background (Gad, Sir, we were there in John Company's time!) and going through the sausage machine of the still very Irish Catholic Church here I was in a sorry state by the time I reached my late teens.
Coming to Subud released me from searching for mirages in the contemporary spiritual landscape. The possibility that God was "inside" me rocked my socks off.
I shall never forget my receiving that Islam was my true religion. I was such an intellectual prig I actually tested it with Sudharto in Cilandak. Masha Allah! Why didn't I just believe?
It is true that contemporary Islamic scholarship in general tends to believe Subud is either wildly heretical or right outside Islam.
The truth is, as in all things, only Almighty God knows.
What Pak Subuh did was give people an experience (the latihan) and a map (book, talks etc to follow).
When Subud came West it came initially to a small, somewhat insular group of Bennett's followers. It also had a very Javanese "colour" to it.
The essence of Subud - like the essence of all major revealed religions - is universal. The latihan is far from being a Gurdjieffian "teaching" nor is it part of English, German or any other culture.
What I think is really wonderful is that there are young people like yourself out there who are living it in the real world.
Harun K is quite right, I have been pissed off with my local, ageing and somewhat inward-looking group for years. But they are, thank God, not Subud Australia. Certainly not Subud worldwide!
The late Pak Subuh hinted it may take a few generations for Subud to strike root and show the world, through the people in it, what it really is.
I have met and known - sometimes only briefly,sadly - men and women such as your own father; Ramzi Winkler, his wife Arifah and part of their family; Michele von Royk-Lewinski; Livingston Armitage and others less well known but equally honorable, who are, in ordinary daily life, a shining example of what Subud is.
Those people, I believe, are not only thoroughly decent and honorable in the conventional sense, but have not been afraid to touch the deep wellsprings within themselves; face their own demons within (as we all must), conquer them and move on.
Although Subud is a group or brotherhood/sisterhood and should support us in our search for truth and out true identity, the responsibility is upon the individual to put into practice what they receive.
I believe we need to relax - maybe even using a simple relaxation technique - before latihan; truly feel and receive and not enter into empty chatter either before or after so as not to dissipate what we receive. Mere buildings, money and successful enterprises do not, alone, Subud make.
I think we also need to be brave, strong but courteous in defending the real ideals of Subud. Subud is not a group of silly old farts gathering for a cup of tea and a natterhan but worship of Almighty God. Certainly not formal religious worship but true worship nonetheless.
With my very best wishes,
Ismail
michaelf - Nov 21, 2005 - 09:31 AM
Post subject: Re: An Answer
Ismail wrote:
Dear Harun, David, Henry, Michael F & anyone else,
Harun: I take your points as put so well and kindly.
I would be the first to admit I have spilt a bucket of bile in my last post.
Nothing I said was meant to reflect on the character nor intelligence of either Henry or Michael F whom I regard as decent and honorable men. If I have offended them in any way I offer an unreserved apology.
My own personal circumstances - though in no way desperate nor life threatening - may have coloured my response.
Subud was, and has been, a part of my life for many years. But my life is much more than my involvement in the brotherhood.
Anyway, time to both go and wish you all well.
Regards,
Ismail
Ishmail
I observed during WC 2005 that I have a penchant to thrive (and improve with changes) on criticism. If one has been married 40 years and still together, it is understandable from that training background.
Your gracious apology is appreciated but certainly not called for from what you have posted. I benefited specifically, like a snap "bingo" in the brain, from your noting that Bapak's Talks are his spontaneous receiving which are not related to fundamental Islamic beliefs. I recall his definitions of 'shariat' and 'makrifat' which are clear in my mind.
My apology is to Killbilly, whose estatic experience is uplifting, and the readers for my getting embroiled in this thread. Much of what David protests about should have been posted to a different thread. As you noted, it is too much navel watching which has no interest to non-Subud members and is not what members expected to find in this thread.
I hope you, Ishmail, will open a new thread where I might join in conversation regarding the broader aspects of life. My wife once agreed with me that any improvement in my being considerate to others would be an indication of a benefit from Subud. Over a decade later, she made a particularly nice compliment on my considerateness. "Ah hah! " I pounced on the evidence, to ask if she accepted then that it was due to my following Subud as we had agreed.. "Not at all." she told me. "You are just getting older." You can't win.
Kind regards,
Michael
davidweek - Nov 21, 2005 - 10:11 AM
Post subject:
Hi Michael
Your post, like much of Subud literature, is full of contradictions. On the one hand, you object to me saying that Subud "makes claims to know what is the will of God". In the same post, you quote Bapak as saying ""Follow, therefore, in the steps of God. He will lead you in the way of peace: the way which man can never find and understand alone, or, when he is on it, know how he is directed, whether it is towards the North, South, East or West. This is the way of God, and thus it is if He so wills."
Let us be very ordinary here, and acccept that "following the Will of God" requires "knowing what God wills."
You also cite the commonplace Subud claims that "...Bapak is just an ordinary man." The concept of integrity is an alignment between the way in what people say, and their actions. If the actions of the Subud community were aligned with the statement "...Bapak is just an ordinary man", then I would of course agree with you. Where you err is paying too much attention to Subud talk, and not enough to Subud behaviour. I adhere to the old dictum "watch what I do, not what I say." If you need evidence that Subud as a community does not treat Bapak as "an ordinary man"... well, you've been around as long as I have.
"That is why Bapak never claims to be a saint, a prophet or anything like that - never. Pak Subuh is only Pak Subuh. For it is God alone Who knows how Pak Subuh stands before God, and it is not possible for men to know it, so there is no need to say that Pak Subuh is a man who is close to God."
My argument is not with Pak Subuh. It's with those among us who would disregard the above and treat him as saint, prophet, or man who is close to God.
Allow me to put it plainly: I agree with Pak Subuh, that he is not a man who is close to God (that is not exactly what he said, but I do him the honour of not treating his words as though they are word-games.) Instead, we have so many members who have made Bapak their guru, his 10,000 pages of talks their scripture, and -- ultimately -- Kejawen their religion. Which is their right. As long as they don't claim that their guru, scripture or religion are Subud. Because Subud has none of the aforementioned. So sayeth the founder, such is our public promise, and thus such -- as persons on a spiritual path committed to integrity -- shall we cause to be truth.
You see, I think that Subud (and Pak Subuh) had a pretty good, and pure, vision and offer to humanity. And I militate against this offer being corrupted into guruism, hubris, religion, teaching, or otherwise.
"Each one of them '...by the Grace of God is Willed to be a channel for God's Grace to every adult of the various races and religions who is willing to follow the way of the latihan kedjiwaan of Subud'."
Now you know the Will of God again. Tut, tut. Do you wonder that people stay away in their hundreds of millions.
"Many Helpers have had the experience of witnessing the opening of someone with a soul which is profoundly deeper that what I sense as that of my own."
More hubris: the illusion that you can perceive the the quality of someone else's soul. If you read the teaching of Christ or Muhammed, you would know that in neither of those religions no man is allowed that knowledge, and only God can judge the quality of someone's soul. But I guess you know better than Christ and Muhammed, no? Again: Do you wonder that people stay away in their hundreds of millions.
"He said that is similar to passing on a clear blue flame from a dried cow pat. Bapak was more eloquent saying it is similar to an oil lamp with low quality oil passing contact to the Great Life Force in the form of a flame to a lamp filled with pure oil."
Yes, well... Bapak was an ordinary man. If you want to quote some spiritual knowledge, why not quote the prophets? I suspect you are extremely well-read on this "ordinary man", and quite ignorant of the religions that he enjoined you to follow.
"Forgive me for appearing to chuff myself up by quoting Bapak, but this passage from Bapak [ibid pgs 45-46] appealed to me as being certainly apt to my personal case."
False modesty, my friend. You have already accreditted yourself with knowledge never before vouchsafed a prophet, let alone one of their followers.
"Bapak considers it necessary to appoint helpers from among people outside Indonesia who have little experience in the receiving of the latihan; because it is not necessary to have attained a high level in order to open others and do latihan with them - it is quite enough if the being of these emergency helpers has become a channel through whiich the mighty Life Force can flow."
You need to understand that the very concept of human beings "attaining a high level" is a product of Javanese feudal hierarchy, and nothing to do with Christianity or Islam. These religions spread like wildfire precisely because they proclaimed the opposite. In neither (with the possible exception of Catholicism, and its Roman imperial structure) is one child of God considered higher than another, one child of God considered more beloved, one brother in Islam closer to God than another.
Impishly, but very seriously
David
davidweek - Nov 21, 2005 - 10:30 AM
Post subject:
Hi Michael
"Varindra knew the party, a helper who was active in Subud HK over 20 years, hosting the latihan meeting. He categorically criticized the member for taking the saying to mean that after Muhammed there will never be another Prophet, as you persist in doing now."
Who cares? Varindra has no business making judgement about Islam, and neither do you -- at least, unless you make clear that such judgements are your private opinion, and nothing to do with Subud.
"If the uinimaginable Power of His Will gave that information to Muhammed, the Messenger, about 1,600 years ago then the extinction of all humanity on earth is not far away, in my most humble extrapolation."
There you go again. You are, of course, entitled to you idiosyncratic opinion about Islam. I am here to assure any Muslim reading this site that such opinion is no more than that.
"I am comfortable with Henry's interpretation, as I presume Varindra, himself a convert from Sri Lankan Buddhism to Islam also understood."
I suggest that if you want to understand Islam, you consult with those learned, authorised and respected by the members of the religion. Varindra does not satisfy those criteria, and to take him as your authority on Islam is just plain silly.
"You perversely have twisted this into criticism of Muhammed which was not the case."
I understand that you believe that. But I think even the most rudimentary understanding of Islam -- even the most basic consultation with the Muslim community -- would have enlightened you to the fact that what you think is not the acid test here. It's what the majority of Muslim community thinks of such statements.
"I think you should put your impulsive reactions to test by your own Inner Guidance before posting volumes. Bapak is famous for telling us to not believe anything, even what he says, until testing it for ourselves. Please use more testing."
Believe me: thoroughly tested. Very, very, very thoroughly.
"Raymond von Sommers' "My Life In Subud" has an excerpt [pgs 87-87] from Bapak's 3rd Talk recorded at Wellington in 1963. "And as for how to limit these desires, for this we need to use the fourth desire [jatmika] to ensure that we do not use the other desires excessively.[angkara- to sow dissension, quarrel, to argue; murka - want to win, be cleverest, do not like even to be equaled; and third, keinginan - to want to possess what you see; fourth jatmika - gentle desire that likes to give way, to be in harmony, to show love and affection, to help one's fellow human beings. ]" Bapak noted all the desires are necessary for our everyday lives. I have striven 40 years to achieve balance."
Good for you. Then explain how making pronouncements about Islam is not to "sow dissension, quarrel or argue." Since you don't believe that Bapak is a prophet, there is no need really to even question the belief of the majority of Muslims that Muhammed (pbuh) was the last prophet. Is there?
"As for myself, a Helper in HK from 1967, 3 or 4 of us continued for several years to accept the invitation to the home of the former Subud member to share dinner to break fast the first few days after Ramadan started, which was a culture for decades in Subud HK."
That I admire. Abdurrachman Mitchell told me earlier this year that one day he looked into his bottom drawer, and saw that he sorted his correspondence into two sections: "Subud friends" and "Non-Subud friends". He saw that, and he suddenly realised: "What am I doing? Am I mad?" One of the greats. Mad indeed.
(The other great story he told: punching out Lambert Gibbs at Coombe, over the right to dance with Eva Bartok
"We are the same friends we were when we were all in Subud, In that way nothing has changed. Hong Kong is such a small group there is an unusual bond of lifelong friendship which includes some who left Subud a long time ago."
Wonderful. No distinction. That's what I am all for.
Love
David
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