 |
 |
 |
 |
| Who's Here |
| | There are 38 unlogged users and 2 registered users online | 
You are an anonymous user. You can register for free by clicking here |
|
|
| Site Stats |
|
Members:
|
|
Total:
|
2080
|
|
|
Last:
|
zderic
|
|
|
 |
 |
 |
 |
|
|
| Author |
Message |
|
|
Post subject: relationships outside of marriage
 Posted: May 14, 2003 - 03:46 PM
|
|
Jiwa Dancer
Joined: Feb 14, 2003
Posts: 19
|
|
hi, I wondered what people think about this issue? I personally have a vested interest in this thread, as I am in a relationship outside of marriage, as is the custom in the UK. I, of course (to avoid blatent hypocricy), don't believe that it's wrong to have relationships outside of marriage, and that the only thing a relationship should be based on is a real love for the person.
In fact, in a way, I feel this topic is a bit defunct (in the UK at least) because, unless your family or some other agent arrange for you to be married to someone, you're hardly going to be able to get married without a relationship beforehand. Maybe the question I'm really asking is regarding sex before marriage, which is a topic I'm sure has been covered before (I've not trawled through all the topics in the forum yet!). I personally believe that if you really feel love for somebody, and are in a long-term relationship that it is an ok thing to do. I certainly disagree with sleeping around, and it feels like that would be a pretty damaging thing to do for anybody.
P.S. perhaps if people want to have arranged relationships in Subud I have come up with a great name for the wing of Subud to do this - Subud Appropriate Relationship Society, or SARS for short  |
|
|
| |
|
|
|
 |
|
|
|
Post subject: relationships outside of marriage
Posted: May 16, 2003 - 10:50 AM
|
|
|
|
This is one of those 'morality' issues, isn't it? Well, as a post-modern, secular westerner, I seem to share at least 2 things in common with the originator of this thread... for better or worse.
Firstly, there is the tendency to regard sex before marriage (and possibly without ever getting 'legally' married) as quite okay, both morally and spiritually.
Secondly, there's the tendency to regard what's morally acceptible - and even what's spiritually acceptible - as partly depending upon the 'cultural background' of the person concerned. From this perspective, there is no black and white; only shades of grey. But furthermore, the degree of greyness varies for each individual. What is right for you could be wrong for me, and vice-versa.
This view of things is granted a sort of 'mandate' within organisations like Subud, in which judgementalism is generally not sustainable. 'Tolerance' is tolerated. This doesn't mean that 'liberal' views, such as those expressed above, are any wiser or more spiritual than 'dogmatic' views. But I think that Subud "in principle" supports a 'hakekat' approach to issues of right and wrong, rather than a 'shariat' or 'takekat' response. To me, the shariat is about rules, and the takekat is about reasons, while the hakekat is about something higher. In practice, however, we can NEVER PRESUME that we are actually living on the level of that something. With patience, trust and sincerity, we can only hope.
The upshot is that we often arrive at a sort of 'laissez faire' attitude to matters of conscience. And what's left then is simply the latihan to help us guide ourselves. |
|
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Post subject: SEx before marriage
Posted: May 28, 2003 - 10:01 PM
|
|
Jiwa Walker
Joined: Sep 16, 2002
Posts: 12
|
|
| It´s really clear in religion. If we didn´t follow the Prophets advices, then why did God sent them to us. Then why are you in Subud if you just believe in your "feelings". We are in a proccess of purification, then why our "sacrate" feelings should always be right? MM... strange. If you keep saying I´ll follow my own feelings, my own "inner feeling", then you could end doing all sort of things. Should we justify our actions by saying "we felt doing them". That´s nonsense. Really nonsense. Bapak never told us that. |
|
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Post subject:
Posted: Jun 21, 2003 - 09:32 AM
|
|
7th Level Skirter
Joined: Apr 17, 2003
Posts: 161
Location: Britain
|
|
My poor dear friend Lorenzo must have seen this coming, starting a thread like this.
The truth is that the social acceptability of sexual relationships outside marriage is inherently linked with that of promiscuity.
To state the blindingly obvious, the purpose of not getting married is to make it easier to end the relationship. Sex outside marriage is about, well, sex. 
Thats why its no good saying sex outside marriage is based upon love for the real person. Rather, Lorenzo brings up the subject of using sex to appropriate a marriage partner. This is using sex as an (unreliable) means to an end, a tool to put it bluntly.
And it is an illusion to believe that everyone elce in society is engulfed in an orgy of promiscuity. Thats only what the film industry wants us to think. According to the Guardian newspaper, hardly a bastion of conservative values, (in the UK) 29% of people are virgins at marriage. |
|
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Post subject:
Posted: Jun 21, 2003 - 11:44 PM
|
|
Jiwa Dancer
Joined: Feb 14, 2003
Posts: 19
|
|
it may be inherently linked with promiscuity but it doesn't necessarily mean that relationships outside of marriage are always to do with promiscuity.
I find it a bit odd that you think the purpose of not getting married in a relationship is to make it easier to end the relationship, is it really? What happens if you really love someone, do you marry them straight away then? Even if it potentially may go wrong? How can you even do that in England?! Write off for a list of people who want to marry strangers?! That's the thing, it's a pointless thing to consider given that you have to have a relationship to decide you want to marry someone (or at least on the whole in the UK, no disrespect to those who believe in arranged marriages), the question is really about sex, and whether you should wait until marriage to have sex.
"Thats why its no good saying sex outside marriage is based upon love for the real person. Rather, Lorenzo brings up the subject of using sex to appropriate a marriage partner. This is using sex as an (unreliable) means to an end, a tool to put it bluntly. "
Ummm, where did I suggest that sex was a tool to gain a marriage partner? I was merely suggesting that having sex with somebody that you really love is acceptable regardless of whether you have a bit of paper saying you're married! What do you suggest? Waiting years to get married constantly repressing sexual feelings for each other? Or getting married incredibly early on, even if things might go wrong later leading to a damaging divorce or unhealthy relationship?
I see your point about ensuring sex takes place in a secure long-term relationship rather than one where it is easy to end it, but problems can occur in a marriage too you know, and then it can be far more damaging if you have to try to end that.
Basically, if you love somebody, and they love you, and it is a feeling that isn't motivated by anything other than a pure feeling of love, then it is a natural way of expressing your love for each other. It's pretty rare to experience this kind of situation you know, and I think you're getting confused with general relationship rather than actually finding 'the one', I definitely don't support sex in those kinds of relationships which aren't based on a pure feeling of love, but hey that's a really preachy thing to say and just my opinion. Being in Subud we have testing to see whether it's ok from the point of view of the kedjiwaan, so if one was truly worried about the affect on one's jiwa one can test it.
Your last comment seems to subtly suggest that I'm advocating promiscuity (mentioning that holding the view that promiscuity is rife is an illusion mildly suggesting that my motivation for discussing this kind of thing is to justify 'sleeping around') Henry which is rather alarming sweety, I certainly don't (as if you'll read my post you'll see), nor do I harbour paranoia about the film industry as you seem to , perhaps you've seen the film 'kids' too many times...
Anyway, hopefully see you round amadeus sometime so I can pummel you to death with a blunt object for this post only joking... |
|
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Post subject:
Posted: Jun 22, 2003 - 09:19 PM
|
|
7th Level Skirter
Joined: Apr 17, 2003
Posts: 161
Location: Britain
|
|
 Comerade Lorenzo! Glad your still keeping an eye on your thread.
"What do you suggest? Waiting years to get married constantly repressing sexual feelings for each other? Or getting married incredibly early on, even if things might go wrong later leading to a damaging divorce or unhealthy relationship? "
The former, I assure you. Repression is a much underappricated method of controlling instincts. Your obviously not watching star trek enough. Otherwise, God did give us hands for a reason  
I'm certainly not accusing you of advocating promiscuity. Rather, I'm suggesting you are over pessimistic of the capacity of individuals to manage their own life-styles how they wish, instead of having their behaviour dictated to them by social norms, as you suggest.
In particular, when you write "you're hardly going to be able to get married without a relationship beforehand" you are implicitly assuming any such relationship must be sexual. Girls and boys can get to know each other just as friends. 
I'm not saying sex outside marriage is inherantly sinful and evil, merely that "that bit of paper" does make a difference. It's making a committment in front of the community - the purpose is not to rush people into relationships their not prepared for. Its to avoid exactly that. Sexual intercourse is, apparently, marriage before God, who can see us all even after we turn of the lights  |
|
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Post subject: Very Interesting
Posted: Jun 22, 2003 - 09:41 PM
|
|
Jiwa Walker
Joined: Jun 23, 2002
Posts: 13
Location: VA, U.S.
|
|
You bring up quite an intersting topic and I'm sure one that's on the minds of many.
I personally think that there is an ultimate way for doing things and although Bapak always said all his words are words of advice I think to listen, we can find out truths if we really wanted to. To hear that once you have had intercourse with someone, then spiritually you are married or that, a more complex avenue that I do not really know the many realms of, that more or less, your souls are joined and so tooyour ancestry and so too the responsibility to take one to heaven seem to be two reasons to really think about and so then ultimately you could say that it would be best to first really feel whether the person is the one for you, get married and then have at it.
I don't think that it's necessary to have intercourse in order to see if the person is the right one for you and how many times have so many people been in relationships, fallen in love, had sex and then broken up maybe even after years? You're then bound to have another relationship down the road and it's probably not seen as being promiscuos to have a few long relationships that you end up having sexual relations in but how many do you end uphaving before actually, legally getting married.
The legalities of marriage really are a part of this physical world and I think that's what we forget - I don't think that legally getting married all of a sudden turns the relationship into a spiritual one.
I also think that what happens when you have sexual relations before marriage is that you get so emotionally involved that when you realise that the person you are with is not the one you want to spend the rest of your life with, it's so difficult to get away because you have this immense connection, you tend to forget this and are always drawn back to them - I think this is one of the more powerful arguments towards not doing it before getting married. It's too hard to break the ties that bind spiritually and I don't even know if it is possible.
Just some thoughts..... |
|
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Post subject:
Posted: Jun 22, 2003 - 10:11 PM
|
|
Jiwa Dancer
Joined: Feb 14, 2003
Posts: 19
|
|
Thanks for your responses, this is something that's important to talk about I think, a very important issue.
I respect the opinion of those who feel that sex should be kept in marriage, and I would like to take this opportunity to say that I treat sex as being a very important aspect of life, both in the outer and inner and that I in no way see it as something just for fun or something to be taken lightly (remembering that I'm just putting forward my opinion, sorry if I ever sound preachy!)
I didn't mean to imply that a pre-marriage relationship has to be sexual, rather that one will naturally experience this kind of dillema in any relationship, and that it's not really practical on the whole to consider a relationship which immediately leads to marriage hence circumventing a consideration of sexuality outside of marriage.
I know marriage represents a strong commitment to each other in front of society, but if you are in a relationship that strongly feels like you're with the 'one', and marriage isn't a viable option in the near future should you still supress sexual feelings for each other regardless?
Remember, the problems with gaining a link with a person can occur in marriage as well as outside, and then it can be very painful and difficult to end a marriage compared to a relationship outside of marriage. |
|
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Post subject: Re: Very Interesting
Posted: Jun 23, 2003 - 10:44 PM
|
|
Directed Jiwa
Joined: Feb 04, 2003
Posts: 33
Location: London
|
|
|
Rush wrote:
To hear that once you have had intercourse with someone, then spiritually you are married or that, a more complex avenue that I do not really know the many realms of, that more or less, your souls are joined and so too your ancestry and so too the responsibility to take one to heaven seem to be two reasons to really think about and so then ultimately you could say that it would be best to first really feel whether the person is the one for you, get married and then have at it.
I don't think that it's necessary to have intercourse in order to see if the person is the right one for you and how many times have so many people been in relationships, fallen in love, had sex and then broken up maybe even after years? You're then bound to have another relationship down the road and it's probably not seen as being promiscuos to have a few long relationships that you end up having sexual relations in but how many do you end uphaving before actually, legally getting married.
The legalities of marriage really are a part of this physical world and I think that's what we forget - I don't think that legally getting married all of a sudden turns the relationship into a spiritual one.
I also think that what happens when you have sexual relations before marriage is that you get so emotionally involved that when you realise that the person you are with is not the one you want to spend the rest of your life with, it's so difficult to get away because you have this immense connection, you tend to forget this and are always drawn back to them - I think this is one of the more powerful arguments towards not doing it before getting married. It's too hard to break the ties that bind spiritually and I don't even know if it is possible.
Just some thoughts.....
Bang On!
(Err...I mean, I agree ) |
|
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Post subject:
Posted: Jun 29, 2003 - 07:54 PM
|
|
Newbie
Joined: Jun 29, 2003
Posts: 2
|
|
 Chill out guys. I don't understand why we get so het up about sex in Subud with these kind of psuedo puritan ideas. Sexual culture in the twenty first century is imensely complex and informed by centuries of thought, feelings and moralistic preaching etc etc. Bapak's cultural and religious heritage is very different to mine (for example) and the only Bapak quote you will hear me say is 'learn from your own experience'. I believe that morals are personal and the essence of the Subud experience, the latihan, is between oneself and God and God is the only being we have to answer to. Whatever we do in terms of sexual activity is not going to end with us burning in hell, eternally damned. Guilt, worrying, supression and judging others, however are going to make our time here fairly miserable. Let us not judge those who prefer to wait for the one partner and only ever sleep with them or those that enjoy sex in other ways. Leave it to God. As Frankie said in the hedonistic eighties - RELAX (Don't do it? Or do, whatever...). |
|
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Post subject:
Posted: Jul 01, 2003 - 07:34 PM
|
|
Newbie
Joined: Jun 30, 2003
Posts: 2
|
|
Hippocratic 'Pseudo Puritan' ideas or 'exciting 'Hippy lifestyle', or whatever - now where are we gearing into? Today, we are freely chatting and squabbling, asserting and justifying this great ideology and our achievements in it. "Sexual culture", really! Hhmm, sounds highly innovative but wait a minute? I did not know that sex has got a culture! To-date, there are people who are still alive and are sexually active, and these have already witnessed at least nine decades: are we to assume that these wise people have been through eternal sexual cultures? Or, is sex still the same fundamental bond that unites a couple?
Now, to the point. My cultural and religious heritage may be different from another's, but no-one knows the true nature of my sexual experience with my partner except both of us (i.e. if we are truly open to each other) and My Creator. We may think that sex is exclusively personal, I disagree. One does not have sex on one's own. Sex involves another being from this social habitat. Therefore, what one does with/to the other is accountable to that other, to society and I say to The Almighty Creator. I agree with you we are no judge on others. I believe that God is eternally kind and forgiving and has given us that eternal tool: to choose our path, to correct our mistakes and surrender to him to help and strengthen us. I will not mislead anyone by quoting Bapak out of context. To be precise, if you are interested in Bapak's Advice and Guidance about Sex, Love, Marriage, etc, check The Subud Helpers' Handbook, that precious book that certain people are hiding from the members and which they want to get rid off, but a book which I truly believe should be read by each and every Subud Sister or Brother, irrespective of their generation.
When God calls are we going to put God in His own place and define our own stances? And will He smile benevolently and say: "Bravo for being 'politically correct'!"?
Finally, I acknowledge this is purely my own view and I believe that the worst sin to Mankind is to keep people in dark ignorance (I haven't said "self-destruction!); and I pray God to forgive me whether I have said anything out of place or not. |
|
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Post subject:
Posted: Jul 09, 2003 - 12:23 PM
|
|
Newbie
Joined: Oct 23, 2002
Posts: 2
|
|
I've just logged in for the first time in months and find this discussion illuminating. I'm tempted to agree, and in turn, disagree with many of the opinions posted but will do my best to simply share my feelings (many of which are, no doubt, rather provocative).
And, as we are all on a journey which is entirely unique to each of us, I offer my thoughts as a mirror in which you might catch a reflection of what is true for you. And I accept that even the reflection would still need to be integrated into your understanding until you see it from your own unique perspective.
In the first instance, marriage, the institution, is a legal/political construct. A type of ownership that two people tag each other with in order to show that they 'belong' in our society and (more often than not) to subconsciously bully each other into a prescribed behavior. And, in truth, 'that bit of paper' rarely 'makes a difference' when someone wants to leave. However, a spiritual marriage, one in which each partner is fully accountable for her/his own feelings, actions and self-development, leaving behind the cultural norm of demanding, withholding & judging, while entering an interdependent space of acceptance, forgiveness and joining, is an entirely separate topic.
Sex, within the confines of the marriage state or outside of that legal arrangement, has sadly been so much maligned by the patriarchal social attitude (and it's religions) that we think of it as a separate aspect of ourselves, instead of an integeral aspect of who we truely are as spiritual beings. And we've been indoctrinated to fear this 'separate' part of ourselves. Imagine if eating strawberries was how our society determined who had power over others. We would be having a discussion on whether or not eating stawberries was OK, because our religions would have made this a taboo activity outside of their contolled parameters (with best intentions, in some cases). While we're at it, imagine if we honored children as valuable human beings, loved and systematically cared for by all members of society. Then the entire issue of needing to own/label/stake a claim to a specific child would alleviate the obsession to control who has sex with who, when, how, etc. But that, too, is another topic. ( And, please realise that I am talking about the 'control issue' as opposed to whether or not we want to love and care for our children.)
I have spent most of my kids life - nearly 11 years now - living and raising them on my own and have experienced feeling 'dried and shrivelled' during long periods when I had no relationship which included sex. Several times I have tested 'how is it to have sex with so&so?' (though always after developing some basis of friendship) and usually received what I can only describe as 'a better balanced, more fully awakened self' as a reply. I also know that in my ancestoral line there has been much misuse, abuse and rigidity with sex. Part of my journey with the latihan has been in uncovering, working through and resolving as many aspects of this inheritance as I am able. This has only been possible because I do have sex! My understanding and transformation in this area has come from unravelling as much of the 'hidden agenda', whether subconscious, ancestral, past life, miasmic, etc., as possible. Otherwise, the impulse of sexual desire will always be controlled by these 'hidden' variables. My work on the psychological/emotion 'hidden agenda' has enhanced and accelarated the spiritual work of the latihan. In fact, the psyco/emotional work has been the key to opening the gateway to recognition of my receiving.
Once I had experienced joining with another being, focusing on sharing unconditional love, acceptance, joy and worship of the divine source, sex became a natural part of my spirituality and sex for it's own sake (the gotta-get-some type of sex) became consistantly disappointing by comparison, even with the same partner.
While this is, perhaps, old news, the experience of it is quite an astonishing thing. Therefore, where I'm at now with the issue of sex, is that I follow the clearest, cleanest aspect of my feeling/inner guidance and
I p a y a t t e n t i o n !... In addition, I constanly ask to be guided. Again, this sounds obvious, but I have found it very challenging to believe: (1) I deserve to receive guidance!, (2) I am capable of 'hearing' or genuinely 'receiveing' the guidance that is endlessly being offered, (3) that sex is important enough to waste my spritual favor on - exaserbated by a belief that spiritual guidance is limited, (4), well, I could go on and on with this, but you get the picture. Ultimately, as someone else wrote, the only true teacher is experience. And when we choose to experience life, we need to be attentive and honest with oneself in order to learn from the experience. To suggest that the fear of tainting oneself or ones ancestral line should be the determining factor is analogous to suggesting that fear is ever a reliable bottom line for making life decisions. Surely we've seen the folly in that religious/political control mechanism.
A great challenge. of course, is how to deal with sexual desire when there is an absence of an appropriate partner. I suggest that 'repressing' ones feelings will create many maladies, from indigestion to cancer, and the healthier approach would be 'channeling' ones feelings in a more approapriate way. Someone mentioned 'using ones hands', which always seemed an 'empty' exercise without someone to share the 'love' with. Then I read the books by Mantak & Maneewan Chia with Douglas & Rachael Abrams, about 'spiritual sexuality' and followed their suggestion of using the same focus of love, joy & gratitude towards myself, as well as bringing in the latihan (they call it chi). What a difference!! How many of us REALLY love ourselves, for ourselves, as spiritual/sexual beings? How many people really love their partners in this way? How many of us know how to retain the sexual energy and use it in ones life? Or how many men can have an orgasm without ejaculating? I strongly recommend these books to male and female alike. They are extemely insightful and practically very helpful. (These people are speaking from a Toaists framework. I have gotten over the confusion about 'mixing' that seems to distract some of us in Subud, so, for me, the word chi very easily translates to life force/latihan energy.)
So, to sex or not to sex is less of an issue than HOW we have sex; what state or intention we have and (big one, this) how accountable we are willing to be for the consequences of our actions. For all of our actions have consequences.
The single most important factor to me, is bringing in the latihan. I am one who disagrees that we humans are so much more powerful than God that we can go against God's will. I choose to believe, instead, that the 'good/bad judgment' is a human construct and that the divine source of all creation is UNconditional in it's ever flowing love for all aspects of itself (humans included) and eternally patient in allowing us whatever we need on our incredibly complicated and challenging journey towards higher awakening.
And loving, joyful sex, infused with the latihan, really wakes me up!!
Safe journey...
Miranda Wilson |
|
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Post subject:
Posted: Jul 10, 2003 - 11:31 AM
|
|
Divinely Inspired
Joined: Sep 17, 2002
Posts: 93
Location: Brisbane, Australia
|
|
Dear Miranda,
Your writing is delightful. I'm very grateful to you for it. That doesn't mean your path is necessarily like my path - of course not! But the description you offer helps me find my own bearings. I also love the metaphor of a journey.
This has turned out to be an interesting topic, hasn't it? Lots of thoughtful messages from sincere, thoughtful and earnest people.
Best wishes,
Merin |
|
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Post subject:
Posted: Jul 10, 2003 - 04:26 PM
|
|
7th Level Skirter
Joined: Apr 17, 2003
Posts: 161
Location: Britain
|
|
I agree with Merin, this is a wonderful, illuminating thread on a very interesting topic. I am curious of Miranda's assertion that a spiritual marriage is where each partner is fully accountable for "her/his own feelings, actions and self-development, leaving behind the cultural norm of demanding, withholding & judging, while entering an interdependent space of acceptance, forgiveness and joining".
I thought it would be one where each is responsible for the other's wellbeing. That would be why commitment is important. My understanding is that two human beings are automatically spiritually bonded if not married when they have intercourse. Isn't the whole purpose of oneness that everything be shared? That might be the advantage of permanence in a relationship. What is everyone's opinion of this? |
|
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Post subject:
Posted: Jul 26, 2003 - 03:49 PM
|
|
Newbie
Joined: Jun 29, 2003
Posts: 2
|
|
Miranda, what you have written is beautiful, authentic and full of wisdom. You have put into words what I feel instinctively and been far more honest than I could ever be publicly. Thank you so much. Now if only we could have this kind of open discussion at a gathering with kejiwaan support, especially for the youth, maybe we could each start to have the courage to follow our own journeys.
Love to you all |
|
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Frontpage 
FAQ
Search
Register
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
