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Post subject:
 Posted: Apr 22, 2005 - 04:10 AM
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7th Level Skirter
Joined: Jan 01, 2005
Posts: 142
Location: Brisbane
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Dear Benito  ,
When using the terminology of Heaven & Hell, I was, as politely & uncontroversialy as possible, trying to get away from what I saw as being fairly black & white phraseology as used by Simon Monbaron. 
My use of these terms was metaphorical. But I believe that the statement that Heaven & Hell are within you has been made by Bapak and also occurs is the teachings of Jesus and others.
I was not trying to be some smart arse intellectual but trying to get this forum away from absolutist positions.
Bapak & Ibu Rahayu's explanations are meant to be a light to your feet as you practice the latihan.
The latihan is actually the core of Subud  .
I think, sometimes, we go round in circles in our discussions  .
There is an underlying brotherhood between us which we need to realize. Subud does not consist of mutually antagonistic "camps" but fellow travellers on the same road.
May you be blessed,
Ismail |
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Post subject:
Posted: Apr 28, 2005 - 12:14 PM
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7th Level Skirter
Joined: Apr 18, 2003
Posts: 160
Location: Britain
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My impression of the hell and eternity thing is that it is to do with (surprise, surprise) the continuation of life after death. God wants us to reach a stage of awareness here before we can move on. If we do the opposite, and refuse to improve ourselves, things get worse.
Infinity is a much abused word. You cannot say that if someone does something bad, they are going to go to hell forever. Every individual is master of their own destiny, and God does not punish anyone, but rather people punish themselves.
But this does not mean that hell and eternity do not have meaning. If a person never chooses to follow the purpose of their life, we do not know of any limit to how far they can fall. This is especially true in the context of Subud. In Subud we are meant to be experiencing the grace of God. This Latihan is the means by which we are meant to stop falling and spiralling downwards. If we throw away this opportunity, then when will we want to return to God? That is the sense in which hell can be seen as unlimited. Some people give the impression that they want to punish themselves forever.
At least it means there is always a next time  |
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Post subject:
Posted: Apr 29, 2005 - 02:25 AM
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7th Level Skirter
Joined: Jan 01, 2005
Posts: 142
Location: Brisbane
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Dear Henry & Everyone,
Well, I guess if you haven't really had an experience you either believe someone credible or spend ages finding out.
We didn't come into being in a social or spiritual vaccuum. We all had parents - good or bad - relatives, friends etc. Some people's parents were in Subud or Catholic, Anglican, Jewish, Muslim etc.
I do think there is a difference between promiscuity ("screwing around"), being unfaithful in a relationship (whether "of the church" or not) or having a faithful monogamous relationship. (I refer to a heterosexual one).
Subud without any moral or ethical framework would appear to be a contradiction in terms.
Rumi said: "Without a guide a two day journey will take you 200 years".
Bapak was such a guide. Pity so many who supposedly follow his guidance don't.
Henry, I think you & I are in basic agreement.
Beamish blessings,
Ismail |
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Post subject:
Posted: Apr 30, 2005 - 02:22 AM
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Divinely Inspired
Joined: Sep 17, 2002
Posts: 93
Location: Brisbane, Australia
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Hi, Henry,
Just for fun, I'd like to analyse your last posting!
First, you're supposing there is some kind of life after death. Okay.
But WHY can't I say that if someone does something bad, they will go to hell forever? Surely this could be the case even if God doesn't punish anyone. And can we be certain (assuming there is God) that God doesn't?
Then there's the image of 'falling'. It seems to imply that one is automatically falling unless one chooses to follow the purpose of one's life. But why does the 'default' condition have to be so negative?
Also, you emphasise that Subud people are meant to be experiencing divine grace. But are other opportunities available to stop this process of falling? (And how come downwards motion always seems to be in spirals?)
Clearly, up is associated with 'towards God'. However, returning to God is somehow a matter of wanting to, and it involves following the purpose of one's life. Are these possibly much the same thing?
And with this sense of free choice, are the results limited to just either falling or not falling? Is there some way of choosing to move towards God? And if one doesn't improve oneself, why doesn't one simply stay put?
My questions are lighthearted and not to be taken seriously.
All the best,
Merin |
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Post subject:
Posted: Apr 30, 2005 - 10:22 AM
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7th Level Skirter
Joined: Jan 01, 2005
Posts: 142
Location: Brisbane
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Merin,
Is it the sound of one hand clapping I hear for you?
Or is it the traditional Zen answer to a koan: "Mu!"
Sorry, mate, but you're a friend & I reely, reely couldn't resist as we say Down Under.
Like Dobby in "The Prisoner of Azkaban" I shall now iron my hands.
But I promise not to turn on the electricity.
Best wishes to you & Sharon,
Ismail |
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Post subject:
Posted: Apr 30, 2005 - 10:47 AM
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7th Level Skirter
Joined: Apr 18, 2003
Posts: 160
Location: Britain
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Of course Merin, I never take anything you say seriously! 
I most like Socrates' argument for the immortality of the soul in Plato's 'The Republic". He takes the separateness of the body and soul for granted, and from there points out that although the soul can be harmed, through ignorance and cowardice, it cannot be destroyed whilst a person is alive. Hence, he concludes, the soul must be invulnerable, and so something which is invulnerable must be immortal.
Quote:
But WHY can't I say that if someone does something bad, they will go to hell forever? Surely this could be the case even if God doesn't punish anyone. And can we be certain (assuming there is God) that God doesn't?
Well, clearly there is nothing to stop you saying that, unless you have food in you mouth. What I mean is there is no reason to suppose that is the case. If a bible (or any other holy book) basher stands on a box and shouts that you are going to hell for sinning, you can legitimately reply that it is not for him to determine, as it is your own jiwa that will decide.
I think the imagery of spiralling is meant to represent how the context in which things go wrong is both changing and repeating. This is linked to why you cannot stay put. Life is about movement - blood flowing, heart pumping and all. Movement is about change, and change is always for the better or for the worse, with the whole eternal battle between order and entropy. I'm not sure where this paragraph stopped making sense, but it has, so ignore it.
All my love, Henry  |
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Post subject:
Posted: May 01, 2005 - 02:39 AM
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7th Level Skirter
Joined: Jan 01, 2005
Posts: 142
Location: Brisbane
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Dear Anyone Out There Interested,
And I suspect, as far as that goes in connection with this forum, I am wasting my time.
One of the reasons I think Subud does not spread is because its discourse is almost totally unintelligible to the average intelligent outsider.
The religions: traditional Christianity (Orthodox & Catholic), Islam (Sunni & Shia) et al are basically agreed on what they mean by Heaven & Hell.
There are some theologians or ulema (religious scholars) who are prepared to go beyond the literal meaning & interpret things metaphorically.
There are others - always the minority - who go beyond this metaphorical explanation & try to experience the actual inner reality of religion. Because the literalist attitude is "this can't be done" or "is forbidden" this third category are often considered heretics.
If, after 36 years in Subud & 57+ glorious years of a life whose richness I am just beginning to value, I "understand" what Subud purports to do, it seems to offer you the "inner reality" (hakekat) of truth without your necessarily needing to follow the sharia (religious norms). 
When Subud "came West" it was taken out of its syncretic Javanese background. Some members had, or embraced to some extent, various religions or attempted to graft this Javanese synthesis onto their own lives.
Because we are such a diverse multicultural brotherhood with, thank God, no body like the Vatican to "define" personal beliefs or moral conduct, you can really have or set up any moral framework you want from libertinism to a life of self-abnegation.
Consequently, we have no common language, philosophical or otherwise, in which to discuss our experiences in.
So I guess we shall all go our separate ways.
Thank God for that.
Toodly pip,
Ismail |
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Post subject:
Posted: May 03, 2005 - 01:57 PM
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A long way to the 7th Level
Joined: Oct 03, 2004
Posts: 68
Location: Sydney
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Aiiii.
Theological arguments are never won by one side convincing the other. It's a clash of two different worlds.
I was taken by Ismail's quoting "Heaven & Hell are within", and can't resist citing one of my favourite parables:
The Gates of Paradise
A soldier named Nobushige came to Hakuin, and asked: "Is there really a paradise and a hell?"
"Who are you?" inquired Hakuin.
"I am a samurai," the warrior replied.
"You, a soldier!" exclaimed Hakuin. "What kind of ruler would have you as his guard? Your face looks like that of a beggar."
Nobushige became so angry that he began to draw his sword, but Hakuin continued: "So you have a sword! Your weapon is probably much too dull to cut off my head."
As Nobushige drew his sword Hakuin remarked: "Here open the gates of hell!"
At these words the samurai, perceiving the master's discipline, sheathed his sword and bowed.
"Here open the gates of paradise," said Hakuin.
* * *
PS to Ismail.... St Google whispered to me the following:
Andre Gide: "Just like the kingdom of God, hell is within us"
John Milton: "The mind is its own place, and in itself, can make heaven of Hell, and a hell of Heaven"
Mark Twain: "Travel has no longer any charm for me. I have seen all the foreign countries I want to except heaven & hell & I have only a vague curiosity about one of those."
The great mystic Jakob Boehme: "Must not the Soul leave the Body at Death, and go either to Heaven or Hell? No, replied the venerable Theophorus. Only the outward mortal Life and the Body shall separate itself from the Soul. The Soul has Heaven and Hell within itself already, according as it is written, the Kingdom of God comes not with observation, neither shall they say, it’s here! Or it’s there! For behold the Kingdom of God is within you."
Jorge Luis Borges: "Balance between the two spheres is required for free will, which must unceasingly choose between good, which emanates from heaven, and evil, which emanates from hell. Every day, every instant of every day man is shaping his eternal damnation or his salvation. We will be what we are."
I would say, Ismail, that those of us who believe that heaven and hell are but states of mind, whether we are right or wrong, we are in good company. And with thought, I give the final word to Mr Twain, who said:
Go to Heaven for the climate, Hell for the company.
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Post subject:
Posted: May 04, 2005 - 02:50 AM
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7th Level Skirter
Joined: Jan 01, 2005
Posts: 142
Location: Brisbane
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Hi David,
Thanks
I think our "Western Cultural Heritage" with its Graeco-Roman and Judaeo-Christian roots does tend to see things in "black" & "white" & also tries to prove the abstract is concrete (the Platonic Forms).
Whereas the "Eastern" Hindu-Buddhist approach tends to ask "How can you describe the taste of a bannana if you've never eaten one?"
From the hundreds/thousands of letters to Bapak/Ibu Rahayu & the number of former visitors to Cilandak asking Sudarto all those bizarre questions & wanting an all-encompassing "answer" I think a lot of people (including Subud members) are looking for that "answer".
I would suggest they watch "Hitchiker's Guide to the Galaxy" for an answer.
My two favourite Zen quotes:
"The answer lies where all the questions cease."
"Zen has nothing to say."
My definition of myself? This haiku:
"Not yet having become a Buddha
This ancient pine tree
Idly dreaming."
May Almighty God bless us all.
Yours in deadly serious jest,
Ismail |
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Post subject:
Posted: May 05, 2005 - 08:48 AM
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7th Level Skirter
Joined: Jan 01, 2005
Posts: 142
Location: Brisbane
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Hi David,
Some years before his death, Thomas Merton, the renowned Trappist monk & author, began to refer, rather bitterly, to what he called "The Catholic Kirk" and the destructive role its sometimes unthinking discipline could have on the genuine spiritual life & growth of its members.
Tom Merton was always considered totally orthodox & faithful to the Church's teachings.
I sometimes feel, in Subud, "we" - there I certainly don't include myself - whilst purporting not to be a "religion" or "a religious group" have effectively taken upon ourselves the persona of a religion.
This includes treating Bapak's various writings & recorded talks as Holy Writ. Quoting stuff he said was basically for guidance - a spiritual vade mecum & road map - as if every word (in English translation) were literally true.
The parallel with fundamentalism of any sort is disturbing.
Quite honestly, we won't know whether Heaven or Hell exist til after we die.
Sex is a really beautiful thing. Demonisation of it, a la my Catholic childhood or screwing around like buggaree are both extremes.
Although I am quite conservative, I have no problems with someone like Miranda Wilson saying what she said in this forum. I may not agree but she has been delightfully honest & talked about her way of dealing with being a single woman in a cold & desolate modern world. She seems to be a person not given to extremes.
People like yourself add a touch of common sense & humanity when things get a bit like an Opus Dei group.
"Bapakshay" without understanding the kindness, humanity and warm human compassion of the man is missing the mark.
I hope you, as a former Cilandak kid, will continue your contributions which I appreciate.
Warm regards to everyone,
Ismail |
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Post subject:
Posted: May 11, 2005 - 03:05 PM
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A long way to the 7th Level
Joined: Oct 03, 2004
Posts: 68
Location: Sydney
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Hi Ismail. You're too kind. And I mean that.
David |
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Post subject:
Posted: May 12, 2005 - 01:50 AM
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Jiwa Walker
Joined: Sep 05, 2003
Posts: 7
Location: Costa Rica
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This really isn't so complicated. Sex is the deepest contact that exists between 2 people. So when we come together, the content of our very souls, which is like a clear pool, merges with that of the other. Like it or not, what was once truely yours, is now forever mixed with the content of the other.
The way Bapak put it, if you were a soul at this level - say a 7, and you merged with as soul of a level 2, you end up somewhere in the middle. So the consequesces can be serious for a person with a pure nature who merges with one that is filled with dirt. Through this simple act, you now possess this dirt as well...there is no way to give it back...and no amount of regret will reverse your condition. As if you needed it, you now carry a new burden.
The first time I realized the truth of this was shortly after I joined Subud. Through acts of carlessness, I would casue myself years of intense suffering.
For my younger brothers and sisters, I have only this advise: have great respect and care for your soul and guard it as if it were the most valuable thing you posess in life - because it is. |
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Post subject:
Posted: May 14, 2005 - 02:43 AM
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7th Level Skirter
Joined: Jan 01, 2005
Posts: 142
Location: Brisbane
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Dear H Kaber,
I understood what you said.
But, you do realize, speaking what I consider "Subudese", it may not be intelligible to a guest in an open forum?
Strangely enough - as a self-confessed "boring old fart" - of impeccable, well, almost, sexual morals, I have great faith in "the younger generation", both inside & outside Subud.
When a Catholic adolescent, I found Irish-Australian "Catholic Puritanism" (it was just that!) re sex plus what the late Malcolm Muggeridge called "the masturbatory imagery" of 60s soft-core porn made what should have been a wonderful stage i.e. becoming a man (same goes for women) hideously & unecessarily painful.
When talking to my kids, who, unlike me, got the "facts of life" explained to them, I realize now I did what my father, a wonderful, stiff upper lip genuine Anglo-Indian colonel archetype, who regarded Subud as "complete and utter bull" did to me. He did what he would have done in Urdu to his simple village lads, now far from their homes, fighting the Fascists in a war they may not have understood. He warned me about STDs. He didn't talk to me about love: with my mother, a "Merle Oberon" type, he never loved any other woman!
Sir, or Ma'am, without wishing to "rubbish" (Oz slang: send up) you, may I politely suggest, before you pass on your wisdom to "the younger generation", you consider the consequences? Please put it in plain English. Say what you have genuinely experienced. Please don't quote "Bapaksay" as Holy Writ. It was just advice to help us. Couched in language from his own background which most of us, after years, still find strange & exotic.
So many younger people reject Subud because of "the wisdom" (contradicted by the behaviour) of "us".
My apologies for any unintended offence. I have tried not to be. Offensive.
I ask that we all consider before we write.
People, sometimes with aking hearts, broken on the anvil of life, come here for help.
Someone once told me he thought my handling of one topic was inappropriate. I did take that on board.
Don't go away "hkaber" but please consider.
Regards,
Ismail |
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Post subject:
Posted: May 14, 2005 - 02:49 AM
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7th Level Skirter
Joined: Jan 01, 2005
Posts: 142
Location: Brisbane
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P.S. I misspelt "aching" in the previous post. Or is is "acheing", "aaking" or "arking"?
Regards,
Ismail |
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Post subject:
Posted: Jul 29, 2005 - 06:21 PM
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Newbie
Joined: Jul 29, 2005
Posts: 4
Location: In a Wisma Submarine
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Any sexual intercourse, whether in a marriage or outside it, comes with a large responsibility, one that is invisible in the moment but rears its ugly head later. During the sex act more than just fluids are exchanged, and consequences are inevitable. Anyone who practices the latihan surley knows the truth of this.
And yes, different cultures view sex from different angles, but the only culture that really matters is God's culture. That surpases all others.
In the west we love to justify our sexual promiscuity, or freedom of sexual expression. We say i'ts not that bad. I love him or her. Its just sex", but our personal oipinions count for nothing in the big picture. The truth is, deep down we know the consequences of our sexual actions, whether married or not, especially if we consistantly practice the latihan. Its just up to us how we want to perform in life after we are aware of the truth. And believe me, when you are no longer ignorant, the karma is instant.
In my opinion, we, especially in the west, have fallen into a tailspin with our sexual behaviour. We are treading down the wrong path. There was something honest about our ancestors attitude toward sex and their deep respect of it that we have lost. Just like we so easily forget the contact of the latihan, so do we easily forget behavior that is in accordance with Gods will.
I speak from experience and know that sex, especially outside of marriage is not something to be toyed with. You will open up a can of worms, with heavy consequences, that most of us wont realise until its too late.
But dont take my word for it. Test about it..... And then test again. |
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