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Post subject: a few questions
 Posted: May 06, 2006 - 02:28 PM
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Jiwa Walker
Joined: May 06, 2006
Posts: 5
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Hi,
Recently I have been reading about SUBUD. I have a few doubts I would very much appreciate being clarified.
1) Why is the latihan not considered as a trance?
2) What would be the difference between the latihan and the Christian experience known as receiving the Holy Ghost?
3) If the latihan is really so marvellous and life-transforming, why then often people stop practicing it? |
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Post subject:
Posted: May 06, 2006 - 03:31 PM
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Site Admin
Joined: Apr 04, 2006
Posts: 19
Location: Brighton
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Hi Seeker
The latihan kejiwaan (literally exercise of the soul) is not considered a trance because we simply surrender our hearts and minds to Almighty God. We are not altering our state of mind in this way.
The latihan kejiwaaan arises spontaneously within our being and starts with a feeling of surrender to Almighty God, without our wishing it or willing it beforehand.
I have not experienced the Holy spirit in the Christian sense so I am unable to comment.
It's always a shame when people stop practicing the latihan kejiwaan and it always (according to my understanding) comes down to the way a particular person's heart and mind has been affected by an experience (which may or may not have anything to do with Subud). There are many things that upset us in life and it's never what actaully happens that is the culprit but always our interpretation of what has happened that causes the upset.
I hope this helps.
God bless - Esaias |
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Post subject:
Posted: May 06, 2006 - 06:34 PM
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Jiwa Walker
Joined: May 06, 2006
Posts: 5
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Thank you Esaias
I was asking about trance because that was the impression I got when I was reading "Stairway to Subud". I thought that when people were opened they experienced some kind of kundalini-awakening or altered state of consciousness. But from what you say I gather that what you experience is an exhalted state of devotion, am I correct?
Also I was asking about the Holy Ghost or Holy Spirit because I have heard that there are some protestant churches where people also move freely and speak tongues, etc. I wanted to know of any differences or similarities with SUBUD. Perhaps someone who has visited such a church can comment on this? |
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Post subject:
Posted: May 06, 2006 - 07:54 PM
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Jiwa Dancer
Joined: Jan 09, 2006
Posts: 21
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Post subject:
Posted: May 06, 2006 - 08:35 PM
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Jiwa Walker
Joined: May 06, 2006
Posts: 5
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I have heard about Hariharananda, but I received the kriya tradition via SRF. I attend the group of Havana, Cuba.
Anyway I like learning about all the different paths and religions so I can better understand and respect them.
I had already seen the link you posted about SUBUD, but thanks anyway. |
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Post subject:
Posted: May 06, 2006 - 08:52 PM
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Site Admin
Joined: Apr 04, 2006
Posts: 19
Location: Brighton
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Dear Seeker I have sent you a private message.
Esaias |
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Post subject:
Posted: May 07, 2006 - 08:20 AM
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7th Level Skirter
Joined: Jan 11, 2006
Posts: 136
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Dear Seeker, I think the only way you'll know for sure if the latihan is some sort of trance or not is to be opened and see for yourself. But it's a good question and I asked it too when I first started doing the latihan. And you know what? I am still not absolutely sure it is not a trance but it no longer matters to me because it's like no other form of meditation I've practiced (and I've practiced a few). Rather than doing the latihan, it does me. Unlike meditation, I don't have to try to do the latihan, I just have to let it happen (which isn't difficult).
I am one of those people who dropped out of Subud for quite a while and came back. I left because I was young, inexperienced, and lacked faith - faith in myself and faith in the latihan. I never had any negative latihan experiences (and still haven't), they were all positive. I just wasn't sure that the latihan was taking me anywhere, that I was making spiritual progress. I still don't have complete faith in the latihan, that it will make a substantial difference in my life, but it feels real and true to me so I continue to practice it. As I said, I've tried other things and known some spiritual teachers so I have some knowledge of how the latihan compares to other sorts of spiritual practices.
No, I don't have certainty about the latihan, as I don't have certainty about most other spiritual matters, such as whether I have a soul, have lived before and will live again, etc., etc. But who does have certainty about these things? Perhaps some day I'll have more answers about such things, but until then I am just another bumbling spiritual pilgrim on the road to Damascus. In the meantime, I just try to enjoy the journey and the company of my fellow travelers.  |
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Post subject:
Posted: May 07, 2006 - 05:03 PM
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Jiwa Walker
Joined: May 06, 2006
Posts: 5
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| Thank you very much for sharing your experience, greenlore. |
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Post subject:
Posted: May 07, 2006 - 11:22 PM
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7th Level Skirter
Joined: Jan 11, 2006
Posts: 136
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Thank you, Seeker. Actually, after thinking about this, I realized that the latihan is not at all like a trance - for me, anyway. In latihan, I am usually completely aware of my surroundings, the noise and bustle in the room, but I "pay it no mind", it doesn't bother me. Also, for me, the movements I make in latihan are voluntary. (I've never felt impelled to speak in latihan). If I wanted to, I could pay attention to the energy I feel in my body without moving. But I'd rather follow the movements suggested by the flow of energy.
I have noticed that when I am completely centered in latihan, when my attention is deep within, I tend not to move at all because my attention is completely off of my body. I'm practically out of my body, consciousness wise. So apparently a certain level of awareness of one's body is necessary for one to feel the impulse to move or speak. But maybe that's a given?
By the way, I actually met Swami Kriyananda in a movie theater in San Francisco. Funny place to run into a Swami!  But he was allowed to be there  because 'Meetings with Remarkable Men' was playing - good movie by the way, about the life of Gurdjieff. |
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Post subject: a few questons
Posted: May 10, 2006 - 05:23 AM
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Jiwa Walker
Joined: Aug 13, 2004
Posts: 12
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I consider the latihan not to be a trance for the same reasons, generally, as greenlore; one can stop it at any point, one is aware of goings on in the room, etc. I, though Jewish, consider the latihan essentially to be the holy ghost moving in people. We happen not to use this language, we use Bapak's indo teminology, just to make it sound all mystical and stuff. Honestly, anyone's claims about the latihan must be taken as only their own. "They shall be known by the fruits of their labors" etc. If anyone starts to wax on their spiritual knowledge, I usually nod, and then try to make fun of them as kindly as possible. We can speak of our experience, nothing more.
Why people leave subud if the latihan is so profound? I think the latihan points us in a new direction, perhaps 5 degrees different from where we were before. In the long run that 5 degrees makes a big difference in where we end up and what we've done along the way, but meanwhile it doesn't constantly provide profound changes in everyone's lives, so some lose patience with the latihan. Oh well, what are we to do?
May I suggest wikipedia.org as a place to read about Subud? It's not run by Subud people, so lacks the jargon that can make subud so incomprehensilbe.
These are my thoughts about these few questions.
Aaron |
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Post subject:
Posted: May 13, 2006 - 06:43 PM
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Jiwa Walker
Joined: Aug 10, 2004
Posts: 8
Location: España
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Hola.
Me permito responderte en español ya que creo que eres de Cuba.Lo primero que quiero decirte es que no soy miembro de Subud pero he leido todo lo que he podido sobre ellos.
Creo que su ejercicio espiritual si es una especie de trance, muy parecido al que se practica en Cuba dentro del contexto de la Santeria o como lo que practican los misticos musulmanes Sufies, tambien se hace lo mismo en el seno de los movimientos carismaticos Cristianos(tanto protestantes como catolicos). Lo que quiero decir para que me entiendas es que " han descubierto el agua tibia". En cuanto a sus creencias me parecen una amalgama religiosa poco imaginativa con cierta tendencia islamica (su fundador seguia esta religión).Por lo que se apesar de su aparente respeto hacia otras religiones inducen a sus seguidores a realizar ciertas practicas musulmanas,incluso algunos terminan uniendose a esta religión.Por no hablar de su interes porque sus adeptos se casen preferentemente con miembros del grupo(lo cual les debe resultar dificil ya que son un grupo muy minoritario)cosa que me parece terrible y una injerencia en la vida privada de las persoans inabmisible.Tambien tienden a adoptar un nuevo nombre (dado porla lider del grupo, hija de su fundador ,se ve que hay cosas que se heredan) lo que me parece una practica sectaria (has nacido de nuevo para el grupo con una nueva identidad).Sus hijos tambien reciben el nombre de manos de la lider,parece que los padres no son suficientemente buenos para elegir el nombre de sis hijos y si lo es la lider que vete a saber como lo elige si es que lo elige. Y por ultimoel hecho de que las personas que pertenecen a esta orgenización tienen que darle el 25% de su sueldo,lo cual me parece un porcentaje abusivo .
Comprendo que viviendo en Cuba pertenecer a una organizacíon que tiene conexiones en el esterior puede resultar util y facilitar un poco la vida teniendo en cuenta las condiciones a ls que estais sometidos.Pero antes de meterte en nada piensalo bien. Creo que no tener libertad de expresión y de decisión politica es terrible pero mas terrible es no tener libertad de pensamiento. Dios nos ha dado libertad para llegar a el sin necesidad de intermediarios. |
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Post subject: a few questions
Posted: May 13, 2006 - 11:37 PM
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Jiwa Walker
Joined: Aug 13, 2004
Posts: 12
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May I respond to what anacaona has written? Sorry, I must write in English, for en espanol I am useless.
I agree with how you ended anacaona, stressing that we need to be in touch with God without intermediaries.
I, in fact, think Subud is a splendid way to be in touch with God without intermediaries. No one ever tells one what to think. If they do, the common practice is to ignore them. Bapak, in fact, usually ended his talks stressing "don't beleive what I've just said, test it, put it up to your own experience" and this, I beleive is what is useful about Subud.
The naming is a little funny, but let it be known that as Ibu Rayahu ages, and the burdens of people asking her for names becomes too much, Subud couples are beginning to name their own kids, without help but from God (hopefully).
There is no demand for money in Subud. If people want to give, fine, but this 25% of income thing you say is ridiculous. If anyone does give that, so be it, but I know of no one who has done so.
Subud doesn't encourage couples to marry within it, but it just so happens that a fair amount of couples meet through Subud, have thus, some sort of connection, common culture, common language, etc, and get married.
Subud doesn't encourage people to take on Islam. Bapak decribed things in terms of Islam (or at least Sufism) because that was his culture. Some people take that on, and convert to Islam (which may be a good thing, and may be mimicry, I don't know), but this is not a goal of Subud.
In fact Subud doesn't encourage anything, except that people do what is right for themselves. I think Subud, the organisation, exists solely for the purpose of letting people organise (rent, or buy) a space to do latihan together. If anybody does say Subud encourages this, or that, they are actually wrong, and not acting in accordance with Subud, I think. Any person may say this or that, which may be their own experience, but no one represents Subud enough to say what Subud encourages.
So, though I respect your thoughts about the dangers of people letting another become an intermediary between themselves and God, anacaona, I think it's being misplaced, pointed at Subud. This may seem funny, but Bapak said the worst sin is to be a spiritual teacher, for this is to act as an intermediary between a person and God.
Those are my thoughts concerning your concerns about Subud. There may be things wrong with Subud, but these aren't those things.
Regards,
Aaron |
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Post subject: Re: a few questions
Posted: May 30, 2006 - 09:18 PM
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Jiwa Walker
Joined: May 06, 2006
Posts: 5
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Sorry, I had lost my internet access.
Gracias, anacaona. En realidad mi intención no es exactamente entrar en ese grupo, pues sigo otro método. Pero sí me gusta conocer los fundamentos de los distintos senderos hacia la sabiduría, esto me permite tener una visión más amplia del mundo y me ayuda a ser respetuoso hacia las personas de diferentes creencias.
Thank you too for clarifying, aaron. |
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Post subject:
Posted: Jun 05, 2006 - 02:05 AM
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7th Level Skirter
Joined: Jan 11, 2006
Posts: 136
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I don't understand Spanish all that well. Who was anacaona suggesting are acting as God's "intermediaries" in Subud?
Subud is actually the only spiritual path I know of in which this isn't true. Religions have their prophets, spiritual teachings have their gurus and masters. There is no instruction manual for the latihan.
aaron said: "I think Subud, the organisation, exists solely for the purpose of letting people organise (rent, or buy) a space to do latihan together."
Well, if the Subud brother/sister-hood existed "solely" for that purpose, it would be a real estate alliance rather than a spiritual organization. |
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