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Post subject: Subud Eyes
 Posted: Sep 25, 2002 - 05:30 AM
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Jiwa Walker
Joined: Sep 16, 2002
Posts: 12
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 hi dear brothers. Hi dear sisters.
Do your eyes close when there is something you shouldnīt see? Things that are not good for your feelings, such as images that use to appear in the movies??
Iīve gone with my friends to the cinema. With my Subud friends. When some images that are not "pure" appear... they continue seeing them. I canīt see them. Iīm not better, and I donīt pretend to be better. But each time those images appear something in me advices not to look. Something strong! They may be tipical images such as sexual ones, murderers, ugly monsters, etc. And now, as most of the movies have such images, I think twice after going to the cinema. Most of the movies havenīt any content at all. And they may appear as inocent ones.
The Master of Rings.
mmm... you may say, what a lovely movie.. full of meanings, full of signs. But was it nice to see those monsters??? I wonder what sort of effects can arise after seeing that movie. Iīm sorry.. it doesnīt happen with a movie like "Star wars".... itīs very different.
In my opinion, we should be able to distinguish wich things we should see, and what things we should avoid. Aftere all.... it can damage our future childrens.... and our future children can be future Subud members... and future Subud memebers which are noble can contribute with their noble behaviour to the peace of this planet.
we must accept we arenīt able to improve ourseelvees spiritually... but at least.... we can close our eyes when we shouldnīt see. We can close our mouth when we shouldnīt speak... we can close our ears when we shouldnīt hear....
love to you all.
Moonlight.* |
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Post subject: Do you close your eyes?
Posted: Sep 25, 2002 - 03:56 PM
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Site Admin
Joined: Sep 25, 2002
Posts: 60
Location: Copenhagen
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Dear moonlight.
Thanks for posting this topic, it's very relevant for this time.
I agree with you that there are images and pictures in movies or television that can harm you, or be bad for your soul. But at the same time, we will never be able to keep those images away from us. If I go to see a scary movie I know, I will be frightened if I look, but still I do it, and then we can ask our selves why? I think we have a desire to do what's not good for us. That's the lower forces controlling us. It's for the same reasons children play with matches or other things they KNOW they're not allowed to do. I don't close my eyes when images turn up that can be bad for me, but I just don't go to see films in which some of these images appear! When I watch television and the news come up, I don't turn of the tv. I know terrible images will appear, but in that case it is wrong to close your eyes, because these are REAL things happening, and before you can change these terrible things, you have to be aware of them to be able to change them. And eventhough it may harm you a bit spiritually, sometimes you may have to make a sacrifice, to be able to change the world into a better place for your children.
And eventually if you go on with doing your latihan, I don't think your soul will be damaged, because you're in control of the lower forces and not the other way around. That way you won't feel the need to see things that are bad for you. Anyway, I think that eventually you won't have to close your eyes, because you won't feel attracted to seeing things that are bad for you. I hope this makes sence!
Love Irina |
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Post subject: turn off the tv
Posted: Sep 27, 2002 - 06:30 PM
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Jiwa Walker
Joined: Sep 16, 2002
Posts: 12
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Hi dear Irina,
I believe one can be aware of things without seeing them. And although we may think that what uses to appear on tv and movies is the "reality", still we must be carefull, because after all, remember that strong images tend to "sell", `cos people like to see them. There must be a balance I believe, a careful selection on what we let "enter" to our feelings and senses. And although trough this Latihan we are meant to get free of this lower forces.... still we canīt know surely when we are able to see strong things without damaging ourselves-we may not be aware of it- and itīs not really neccessary to see whatever is shown on tv or movies or newspapers and so to be able to make a "change" in our society. The same problem happens with the term "natural". Marihuana is a natural herb. God did it, so whatīs the problem with using it?? To have sex is normal, so why wait until marriage to experience, if the body is "already ready" to experiencing it when one is 14, or even less?? -
Bye bye, and lotīs of love,
moonlight* |
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Post subject:
Posted: May 14, 2003 - 03:34 PM
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Jiwa Dancer
Joined: Feb 14, 2003
Posts: 19
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| ohhh these thread looks dead, but I'll throw in my two-cents anyway. Maybe this is something that you shouldn't be thinking about? You seem to be arguing about something that is to do with something that isn't really to do with your thinking, so why try and justify it for yourself, or try and push a moral onto people? Isn't this thread meant to be about sharing your experience? Isn't the topic 'Do your eyes close when there is something you shouldn't see?', so surely people should say yes or no and then explain their experience, or lack thereof, rather than trying to come out with some intellectual sprawl which seems rather confusing, no offence intended. |
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Post subject: Re: turn off the tv
Posted: May 14, 2003 - 08:17 PM
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Directed Jiwa
Joined: Feb 04, 2003
Posts: 33
Location: London
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moonlight wrote:
.... still we canīt know surely when we are able to see strong things without damaging ourselves-we may not be aware of it- and itīs not really neccessary to see whatever is shown on tv or movies or newspapers and so to be able to make a "change" in our society. The same problem happens with the term "natural". Marihuana is a natural herb. God did it, so whatīs the problem with using it?? To have sex is normal, so why wait until marriage to experience, if the body is "already ready" to experiencing it when one is 14, or even less?? -
Bye bye, and lotīs of love,
moonlight*
Well, what is the problem with using marijuana...
...for medical purposes?
Also, it is interesting to remember that living in sin is not a sin; at least, cohabitation is not something even discussed in the bible, let alone abhorred, as far as I am aware. *Most* of a devout, Christian Britain lived in sin for hundrds of years, because marriage was prohibitively expensive. The social values in these families were much as the married, but it shows that commonlaw marriage is merely cohabitation by another name, living in sin, sex before marriage, etc. etc. etc. - or perhaps I am wrong?
Lucas  |
Last edited by LucasAdamson on May 29, 2003 - 01:24 AM; edited 1 time in total
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Post subject:
Posted: May 28, 2003 - 10:13 PM
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Jiwa Walker
Joined: Sep 16, 2002
Posts: 12
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Bible never mentioned many things that indeed are considered wrong not just by religion, but by law.
About cohabitation.... well, you keep talking about that in your submitions, and I think you are confused about that. Itīs so clear. Sex is something sacrate. I donīt say that, Bapak did. Iīm in Subud. I believe in Bapakīs words, so I try to be consequent.... I donīt understand the real escence of sex, itīs mystey, so I believe someone whoīs feeling is really true. So I try to follow Bapakīs words regarding SEX. Once he said it was an act of worship. WORSHIP.... WORSHIP...WORSHIP.... he even compared it with the Latihan feeling. I find it really searious always acting following your wishes... specially if sometimes you think they are your "feelings", your inner. Sometimes the body wants to do things that your soul may not.
yours.....
Moonlight. |
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Post subject:
Posted: May 28, 2003 - 11:54 PM
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Divinely Inspired
Joined: Sep 17, 2002
Posts: 93
Location: Brisbane, Australia
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Well, if I am moved by my inner to close my eyes (when at the cinema, for example), then indeed it would be wrong to keep my eyes open. However, if I am not moved by my inner to close my eyes, then maybe it's okay to leave them open (at least for me, although perhaps not for somebody else). Likewise with many other issues, such as sex before marriage, for example.
If I do not 'receive' any feeling or indication that some action is wrong for me, then maybe it is really not wrong for me. Of course we must be reasonable about this, using our ordinary heart and mind appropriately!! But I think we are all different - so there is probably no general set of rules covering every situation for everybody. After all, if rules were enough, then why would we have the latihan as well? Sometimes my soul tells me when my behaviour is wrong - sometimes I listen and sometimes I don't - and sometimes my soul really doesn't mind what I'm doing.
Did the 'prophets' provide guidance for every individual in every situation in every culture at every time in history? I don't think so. For me, Bapak is one of the most important people who ever lived, and I have deep respect for Bapak's words. But I believe that Bapak's 'message' to me is not "rules" for a good life. It's mainly in the form of inner guidance. When Bapak said not to take his advice on blind faith, was he just being polite? I believe he meant that his advice does not necessarily apply in every case. |
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Post subject:
Posted: May 29, 2003 - 01:21 AM
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Directed Jiwa
Joined: Feb 04, 2003
Posts: 33
Location: London
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moonlight wrote:
About cohabitation.... well, you keep talking about that in your submitions, and I think you are confused about that. Itīs so clear. Sex is something sacrate. I donīt say that, Bapak did. Iīm in Subud. I believe in Bapakīs words, so I try to be consequent.... I donīt understand the real escence of sex, itīs mystey, so I believe someone whoīs feeling is really true. So I try to follow Bapakīs words regarding SEX. Once he said it was an act of worship. WORSHIP.... WORSHIP...WORSHIP.... he even compared it with the Latihan feeling. I find it really searious always acting following your wishes... specially if sometimes you think they are your "feelings", your inner. Sometimes the body wants to do things that your soul may not.
yours.....
Moonlight.
Well, I believe that's the first and only time I've mentioned it. I'm not in the least bit confused, as it happens; I understand my position on it very well:
I was making the point that perhaps there is no such thing as sex before marriage, because sex IS marriage. This is also in keeping with what Bapak said. Whether or not this is sanctified by a public ceremony or by God himself in private is for us to decide, or perhaps Almighty God in his infinite wisdom. I consider sex to be very sacred - ultimately an act of worship, yes. I wan't in the least bit condoning people acting upon their basic impulses or anything of the sort, and I'm sorry if I gave that impression. I just like to give people the benefit of the doubt. I know people who live "in sin" and have sex outside of marriage, and some of them are to all intents and purposes married, as far as I can tell. I don't want to judge them!
All the best
Lucas |
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Post subject:
Posted: May 30, 2003 - 08:37 PM
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Jiwa Walker
Joined: Sep 16, 2002
Posts: 12
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| Merin... Merin.... Merin..... OF COURSE we are all different. But spiritual rules must be similar for everyone!!! Of course the prophets didn`t provide guidance for every individual in every situation in every culture at every time in history.... please!!! That`s not the idea!!! There are lots of Subud peole, many, who think like you, many!! But here we are talking about something serious, really serious. SEX. We can talk about different ways of acting regarding common aspects such as where could Merin or Lucas or anyone should go for holidays, or what should you study, etc. But for EVERY individual in ANY cultural situation, in ANY condition..... KILLING SOMEONE IS A SIN. In any religion that is VERY clear. WE know the importance of "cultural relativism" , but everybody know it`s danger also. Cultural differences can`t justify human`s right`s violations. Many young Subud members say "ahh... in my country sleeping around it`s a common practice".... or "I feel is allright to sleep with this or that" or "We shouldn`t follow Bapak`s words as rules".... ETC, ETC, ETC....... there is something much more deep than just wanting to be catalogued as "dogmatic". It would be much more easy to write here that sex is marriage, that cohabitation is a great solution, and that if one just follow his/her feelings everything goes smoothly. But when are we going to be consequent??????? Doing Latihan can be a pleasure sometimes, but where`s the BIG EFFORT we do outside??? It`s reallye asy to go and do the Latihan, but how difficult it is to follow Bapak`s words, to follow the Prophets advices......to be consequent. |
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Post subject:
Posted: May 31, 2003 - 11:28 PM
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Directed Jiwa
Joined: Feb 04, 2003
Posts: 33
Location: London
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Moonlight, whoever you are, whoever said that "Cultural Reletavism" justified human rights violations?
Also, since when did sexual intercourse between two consenting adults constitute a human rights violation?
Also, when is WHO going to be consequent? Who isn't being consequent and why?
Is it not the case that you are "casting the first stone"? The Prophets advised many things that you, like all of us, have failed to follow, and I dare say continue to fail to follow. Life is a difficult business. People need your encouragemant, openness and honesty.
Yours sincerely
Lucas Adamson, in all accountability and consequence |
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Post subject:
Posted: Jun 01, 2003 - 04:10 AM
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Divinely Inspired
Joined: Sep 17, 2002
Posts: 93
Location: Brisbane, Australia
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Dear Moonlight,
When I read your preceding message, I don't particularly disagree with anything you say. Except one thing = I can envisage situations when it would be right to kill somebody. The circumstances must be EXTREMELY rare, but they can exist. And while I admit that spiritual rules must be similar for everyone, similar does not mean the same, and there must always be some room for discretion. I think it is normally sensible to follow the basic rules of religion, since these rules have mostly been generally good for civilisation, and help us interact socially, and maybe they stop us from harming ourselves, and maybe they enhance genuine 'inner' development. So perhaps we are basically in agreement.
One incidental difference between you and me, it seems, is that you have faith in revelation as something that comes to us from God in some form. Personally, I don't believe in direct revelation, although I do follow a religion of some form. Here is an old poem that I love:
ABOU BEN ADHEM
Abou Ben Adhem (may his tribe increase!)
Awoke one night from a deep dream of peace,
And saw, within the moonlight in his room,
Making it rich, and like a lily in bloom,
An Angel writing in a book of gold:
Exceeding peace had made Ben Adhem bold,
And to the Presence in the room he said,
"What writest thou?" The Vision raised its head,
And with a look made of all sweet accord
Answered, "The names of those who love the Lord."
"And is mine one?" said Abou. "Nay, not so,"
Replied the Angel. Abou spoke more low,
But cheerily still; and said, "I pray thee, then,
Write me as one who loves his fellow men."
The Angel wrote, and vanished. The next night
It came again with a great wakening light,
And showed the names whom love of God had blessed,
And, lo! Ben Adhem's name led all the rest!
-- by James Leigh Hunt |
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Post subject:
Posted: Jun 25, 2003 - 11:56 AM
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7th Level Skirter
Joined: Apr 17, 2003
Posts: 161
Location: Britain
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I stopped reading peoples messages half way down this thread - but incase anyone gets this far, remember, if you encounter a real monster, don't close you eyes, turn and run!  |
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Post subject:
Posted: Jul 02, 2003 - 11:08 AM
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Newbie
Joined: Aug 28, 2002
Posts: 2
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I thought the beginning of this post was about movies warping your mind not sex..I think we're far to obsessed with that subject.
Remember Neo in the Matrix he was told to run away from the monster but he stood his ground and faced his fear.
I think we worry far to much about saying the right thing and doing the right thing that we're completely missing the point..or maybe its just me!! |
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Post subject:
Posted: Jul 03, 2003 - 10:27 AM
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7th Level Skirter
Joined: Apr 17, 2003
Posts: 161
Location: Britain
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| I haven't seen the latest matrix film - all the pseudo-gnosticism puts me off. Maybe my Subud eyes are preventing me from liking it. |
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